The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Hefin David.

The Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill

Hefin David AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government's position on the UK Government's Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill? OQ60365

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Hefin David for that question. While housing responsibilities are devolved, property law is a reserved matter. Leasehold reform depends on both aspects, and the Welsh Government will lay a legislative consent recommendation that supports the Bill, which will improve the rights of home owners in Wales.

Hefin David AC: I think there's very good reason to support this Bill not just for leaseholds, but also for those freeholders. The Bill introduces protections for freeholders who are subject to estate management charges, such as those in Cwm Calon in my constituency, and in other constituencies of Members in the Chamber. The Welsh Government has called for evidence on this, and we're pleased to see that the UK Government has finally acted to address home owners subject to the charges who've had very little legal protection, and the Bill will address that deficit by requiring transparency in the levying of charges, and by introducing a right for freeholders to challenge their reasonableness by tribunal.
But I think the Welsh Government could go further, and my esteemed colleague Jack Sargeant, as Chair of the Petitions Committee, is currently investigating this—his committee's investigating it. What I would like to see the Welsh Government do is introduce a compulsory resident estate management company liaison committee, so that management committees are accountable to residents without making residents accountable for the upkeep of their estates, and also put a duty on local authorities so that estate management charges are the very last option of last resort.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Hefin David for those further points, Llywydd. He's right to say that the Bill is a significant advance not simply in relation to the rights of leaseholders, but the rights of freeholders in the circumstances that he set out. And I'm well aware of the campaign that he has helped to support in his own constituency, and I'm quite sure that, around the Chamber, there will be colleagues who have examples in their own constituencies where freeholders have been subject to charges which are hard to understand and the accountability for them is very difficult to trace as well.
So, the Bill does introduce eight new measures. You've heard some of them, Llywydd, from Hefin David. But the fact that the new regime will require that estate charges must reflect relevant costs, that there will be an 18-month time limit for charges to be levied, that there will have to be an annual report by the company receiving those charges to demonstrate what they have done to improve conditions for freeholders, all of those, and other measures, are a genuine advance, and the Welsh Government will be pleased to propose a legislative consent motion in due course, in which we will recommend support for the Bill. We continue to be in discussions with the UK Government about some remaining details. The Bill as published will not be the final Bill; there are additions to be added as it makes its way through the parliamentary process, and I was able to discuss this with the Minister responsible, Michael Gove, when I met him at the British-Irish Council a couple of weeks ago. And the Welsh Government will be pleased to consider the further points that the Member has made about how we could add to the protections for freeholders here in Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: That's a really positive start to First Minister's questions. I certainly welcome the UK Government's Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill. And the fact that you're going to bring in legislative consent, as well, First Minister, is fantastic. Around 235,000 properties are affected, with thousands of occupiers, and leasehold accounts for around 16 per cent of all properties in Wales. This Bill addresses one of the long-term challenges that the country faces, and that's fairness in the housing market. I even had a situation in my constituency where people—home owners—bought their properties thinking they'd bought freehold, and they only found out three years later, when they were asked for £3,000 to buy the freehold of their property, such is the vagueness of that area.The measures will address historic balances between leaseholder and freeholder, to give home owners a fairer deal. And we've seen, with the fire cladding building safety issues, that it's the leaseholders themselves that have actually ended up in properties they can neither sell nor rent. So, the extensive changes include making it cheaper and easier for people—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Can we have the question, please, Janet Finch-Saunders?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —to extend their lease or buy their freehold. Will you clarify how the Welsh Government, as well as introducing legislative consent, are already co-operating with the UK Government during the passage of their Bill? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for those further points. Llywydd, there are Members of the Senedd who believe in principle that we should never allow a piece of legislation to be taken through the House of Commons on our behalf. That has never been the view of the Welsh Government, because there will be occasions where that is to the advantage of people in Wales. And in this case, where the law is complex, as I said in my original answer, housing is a devolved responsibility, property law is not, and leasehold reform depends, crucially, on both. And there are border issues that are complex here as well, with the law on both sides of the border needing, I believe, to be the same, in order, as Janet Finch-Saunders said, Llywydd, to create a system that is simpler, easier and cheaper for people to use. The Welsh Government was involved from the beginning, because, of course, this is a set of reforms that was led by the Law Commission. It's their report that has led to the legislation as it has now been published. We will continue to engage with counterparts at Westminster and Whitehall, because, Llywydd, as I said, the Bill as initially published is not the final Bill, and the UK Government was clear about that. There are amendments that they will lay, and we will want to be closely engaged in those discussions.

Emotional Support Services

Peter Fox AS: 2. What assessment has the First Minister made of the emotional support services currently available for the children of convicted sex offenders? OQ60389

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Peter Fox for that, Llywydd. The Welsh Government jointly chairs the Wales family contact group, together with HM Prison and Probation Service. That group brings together leads across the justice system around the same table, to improve the support available to children of people in the prison estate.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, First Minister, for that. I know you would agree with me that the victims of sex offenders should be given all the support they need as they go through an incredibly abhorrent situation. However, that one group of victims that tends to get overlooked are the children of the offenders themselves. This came to my attention through some recent casework. Often, these children are left feeling unsafe, ostracised and shamed by the actions that had nothing to do with them at all. They are themselves victims of their parent's behaviour, and can be extremely vulnerable and can suffer considerably, leading to many challenges and conditions—even things such as post-traumatic stress disorder. Another real concern for families is that convicted sex offenders can often have access to their own children, despite being legally barred from being within a certain distance of other children, which is equally concerning. First Minister, will the Welsh Government commit to ensuring that children of sex offenders are formally identified as victims and get the support they deserve as innocent children?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I absolutely agree with Peter Fox that children who are caught up in these circumstances are themselves victims of those circumstances. And I recognise exactly what Peter Fox said, Llywydd, about the sense of shame the children feel at what has happened within their own family. Here in Wales, using the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, we are able to mobilise some additional services, to help those young people. They're provided a different prison estate premises by Barnardo's, by the PACT organisation, and by a third sector organisation called Invisible Walls. And we also work with the Lucy Faithfull Foundation. Some colleagues here will know that Baroness Faithfull was the first social worker ever to be appointed to the House of Lords. In her 80s, she established the Faithfull foundation, to prevent abuse in these sorts of circumstances, but then to work with those affected when abuse has taken place. And the Welsh Government is able to provide some funding—it's modest, but it is funding—for the foundation in order to allow them to publicise and to present their work in different parts of Wales.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. If I may extend my thoughts with the community of Aberfan, which is going though an incident at the moment. I'll go no further on that, because obviously it's unfolding, as we speak. But I'm sure everyone's thoughts are with that community and those involved in trying to restore the situation at Aberfan primary school.
First Minister, today, on an educational theme, the Programme for International Student Assessment results have come out and they don't look good for Wales, regrettably. That's not something I say with any happiness, because obviously a child going through our education system gets one go round the track. But, regrettably, these results are some of the worst on record and have seen the steepest decline of any part of the United Kingdom. It is fair to point to COVID as part of the issue, but all countries have faced the global pandemic of COVID. These steep declines in the performance are particularly bad here in Wales. You've had these figures for some time. What is the Welsh Government's assessment of the figures today? And, in particular, what will be the Welsh Government's response to these figures?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, first of all, can I echo what the leader of the opposition said about events that are unfolding in Aberfan? I was grateful for the briefing I received earlier in the day from Dawn Bowden, the constituency Member. Events continue to unfold, and, I think, for the moment our thoughts are with people caught up in them and there will be more, no doubt, that we will learn.
Turning to the PISA results, the results are disappointing—there's no getting away from that—but they're not surprising either. I think the Minister has been telling the Senedd for many weeks of the strains that the school system faces, with attendance, with attainment, and we're aware of this in a number of different measures. And these things, as the leader of the opposition has said, are not unique to Wales. Seventy-one out of 81 countries participating in the PISA programme saw falls in their results, and they are clearly very, very closely linked to the COVID impact. The important thing now is to make sure that the plans we have in place will allow those results to rise again, as they did in the last set of PISA results. That's why we have a literacy plan, a numeracy plan and a new curriculum—a new curriculum designed with the advice of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the body responsible for the PISA scores as well. So, while today is a disappointing day, Wales is in the same position as every other country in the United Kingdom. Every other country saw PISA results in all three domains fall. We're in that position too, but determined that we will do everything we can to help our young people recover and set the system itself back on the track to improvement.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: First Minister, I deliberately highlighted the COVID pandemic and highlighted the point about it being a global pandemic. In the UK, these are the steepest declines in PISA rankings and ratings of any component part of the United Kingdom. The director of the PISA institute that undertakes these assessments has said that they are food for thought about what needs to be done differently. I understand, obviously, as every Member in this place understands, that there's a new curriculum coming through, but these declines that we've seen in maths, literacy and the sciences are major declines that go above and beyond what other countries have seen because of the pandemic. Given that it's not my assessment, but the director of the PISA institute's assessment, about what needs to be done differently and that food for thought, have the Welsh Government given any consideration as to what it can do meaningfully to support schools here in Wales to improve on their international performance? Don't forget, since the Welsh Government entered Welsh schools in the PISA examination process, it was only in 2006, in science, that they have ever got above the PISA average—2006, First Minister. It deserves a more substantial response than the one I've just heard to my first question, First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I am very grateful to those 2,500 young people in Wales who entered the PISA regime this year, and nothing in these results should be a reflection on them or, indeed, on their schools. There is much that we want to do and much that we will do to build on the advice we already have from the OECD itself as to how improvement can be brought about.
I don't want to get drawn too much into comparisons, Llywydd, because this is not what PISA is meant to be. It's not a league table, and it's not meant to be something that is best seen through the lens of comparison. But I think, just for the record, to be clear, the maths scores in Wales fell; they fell by exactly the same number as the English maths scores fell. The reading scores fell in Wales, as they fell in every other part of the United Kingdom. They fell by exactly the same number of points as the Scottish reading scores fell. In fact, if you look across the three domains, the drop in maths performance in Wales was less than it was in Norway or the Netherlands or Germany; the drop in reading scores was less than the drop in Canada or France or Sweden. These are important results. We take them seriously. They are disappointing. I don't think it does young people or those teachers who work so hard with them justice to pretend that somehow Wales is an outlier in them. We share the same pattern as 71 of the 81 countries that entered the PISA regime.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: With respect, First Minister, those aren't my comments about 'food for thought' about what needs to be done differently. They are the director of the PISA examination system's comments, not mine as a politician, and I am not trying to disparage the pupils who enter this exam process or the schools; you are bringing that to the table. I am merely seeking from you, given the lamentable performance in these results—. And I accept the point about the pandemic having an effect, but we have seen the steepest decline of any part of the United Kingdom. And even with the decline that England has faced, their results are better than the best results that Wales has ever achieved in these examination tables. That shows the level of challenge that is required.
Having been here some years now, I can remember Carwyn Jones coming here as education Minister, Huw Lewis coming as education Minister, Leighton Andrews coming as education Minister, Kirsty Williams coming as education Minister, and now the leader in waiting sitting two seats from you, Jeremy Miles as education Minister, coming here and playing down the significance of these results when they're presented to the Senedd. There is a massive, massive deficit for the Welsh Government to work with the education community here in Wales to make us more internationally competitive. Regrettably, I have not heard from you today about anything substantive that you and your Government have considered in light of this steep decline in performance. So, will you at the very least apologise to those learners and teachers and those with the best interests of education at heart here in Wales about the Welsh Government's lamentable performance in education over 25 years and will you redouble your efforts to make sure that, when a child goes into a Welsh school, they will get the best education possible?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, when Kirsty Williams came here to report on the last PISA results, she reported that Wales was the only part of the United Kingdom to have seen an improvement in every single domain of PISA. I want to make sure that young people in Wales do as well as they possibly can. PISA is one measure of that; it is quite certainly not the only one. The same children who sat the PISA tests in Wales will be young people who, on every other measure, go on to have better A-level results, particularly better maths A-level results, than their counterparts in other parts of the United Kingdom. I said in my original answer, Llywydd, that these are disappointing results. They are, and that's why we will take them seriously and they are food for thought; I agree with what the OECD has said about that. But I also think it's important to have a rounded understanding of what our young people achieve here in Wales, of the huge efforts that the education system makes to make sure that they make the very best of their abilities.
The Welsh Government has already—because PISA is not a surprise, given what we have already learnt about the impact of COVID in our schools—the Welsh Government already has in place a literacy plan, a numeracy plan, a plan to bring education leaders around the table together in January to reflect on this set of results and then to make sure that the path of improvement that we were on the last time PISA results were published is a path that we return to for the future.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Can I also associate myself with the comments regarding the reports coming out of Aberfan, also express my concern for the community and thank all those who've taken part in the emergency response?
As we've seen from today's PISA results, under-resourcing our key public services and their workforce leads to negative consequences. Yesterday, the UK Government published its arbitrary, counter-productive and, in some cases, cruel new migration policy that will divide families and deprive our public services of critical workers. Now, 'I like the idea,' is how one MP in Labour's UK shadow Cabinet responded to the announcement—another Thatcher admirer, perhaps—but I hope the First Minister can confirm that he doesn't. Demonising and penalising those who care for us and who can contribute to the social and economic well-being of our nation is out of keeping with the values of my party. Does the First Minister subscribe to those values too?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I do. I think it is important to have a migration policy that is not mesmerised by numbers, but focuses on the needs that are here in this country that need to be met and the contribution that people who come here to help with those needs make to our society here in Wales. We know that so many of our public services, particularly the health and social care service, would not be able to provide for the needs of people here in Wales if we had not been able to recruit people from elsewhere to come to be part of that workforce. The announcement at the United Kingdom level is nothing to do with public services, it's nothing to do with respecting people who work in them, it's all about dog-whistle politics in advance of an election.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I think we have to invest in building our own workforce. It's clear that is the priority, still, but that still leaves us short, doesn't it? According to the Wales Centre for Public Policy, reduced immigration since Brexit is contributing to the high level of unfilled jobs in social care. Whilst the Welsh Government commendably ran a scheme last year that successfully recruited some 400 NHS nurses from overseas, we still have 3,700 nursing vacancies, and that's led to an agency bill that reached £325 million last year. But the new immigration rules, which don't allow health and care workers to bring family dependants with them, will make the recruitment challenge even greater. If the First Minister agrees with me that this migration policy will exacerbate the crisis facing the nursing and care sectors in Wales, what proposals does he intend to bring forward to safeguard not just health and care workforces, but also other key sectors of the economy too?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, there are some fundamental challenges for us in Wales. If you look at the last set of figures about the Welsh population, the only growth—the only growth—in the population of Wales comes from people who have moved to live in Wales. Our own population is an ageing population and is simply not able to supply the labour that is needed for the many jobs that need to be done. So, there are many things we can and do do internally in terms of skills, investment, everything that we have done through the social care forum of the Wales partnership forum to focus not simply on the level of pay that people in social care receive, but their conditions of service and the value that we attach to that profession through the registration process and so on. So, there is much that we can do, and much that we do do, but, by itself, it does not eliminate the need for us to be able to recruit people from elsewhere to come, and we are very fortunate that they do come, to make their lives part of our future here in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And on that, the First Minister and myself are agreed. One policy long advocated by Plaid Cymru is for Wales to take the matterof immigration into its own hands through the establishment of a Welsh migration advisory service. We've already seen the disastrous consequences, frankly, of the Tories' post-Brexit immigration system. We saw it when they went into panic mode after finding they didn't have enough heavy goods vehicle drivers during the fuel crisis. We have seen it when crops had to be left rotting in fields, and now, as they pander to the Tory right, as the Prime Minister's popularity plummets, they've got the undermining of the NHS in their sights too. Now, with all of this in mind, does the First Minister support Plaid Cymru’s calls for Wales to be able to set its own immigration policy, and will he advocate for that with his own party leader, or should the fate of the Welsh NHS be left at the mercy of the Tories' migration policy or even Labour Ministers who like the idea?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, this is a complex idea, and there are many downsides to it as well as advantages—and there are advantages to it, and I know that because I was involved in very detailed discussions alongside Scottish counterparts during the Brexit negotiations, where there was at one time a serious possibility that Wales and Scotland would have been allocated a set of visas that we would have been able to use on our own terms, and that idea was very thoroughly explored. In the end, it was rejected, and I think, from memory, that it was rejected by our Scottish colleagues as well, on the terms that it was offered, because you would then end up competing with other parts of the United Kingdom who also have visas and are able to use them in a way that outcompetes places inside the same country.
Now, at the time, that did not seem to me to be a course of action that was likely to be advantageous to Wales, and, in the end, it was a course of action that wasn’t pursued. But, during the discussions, both the downsides as well as the advantages of the course of action that Plaid Cymru now support were explored, and all I'd say to the Member is that it’s a bit more complex than it seems at first glance.

Autism or ADHD Sources of Support

Heledd Fychan AS: 3. How does the Government ensure that every person in Wales who receives a diagnosis of autism or ADHD receives standard information about sources of support, the impact of the diagnosis, and their rights in terms of services and benefits? OQ60372

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Heledd Fychan for the question. The Welsh Government is undertaking an evaluation of the autism code of practice. The latest report notes areas of good practice, but also suggests that we need to standardise information and improve access to that information pre and post diagnosis.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you very much, First Minister, for that acknowledgement.

Heledd Fychan AS: I recently met with Stiwdio 37, a community interest company dedicated to providing inclusive employment opportunities. They specifically support individuals with learning disabilities, autism and other workplace barriers in Rhondda Cynon Taf. During our discussion, I learned about some of the challenges their clients faced, with some of them only recently having been diagnosed. One major challenge is that inconsistency of information, and the staff team there include 18 neurodiverse people and 12 of them received their diagnosis as adults. Less than half of them were given information about their diagnosis and how to access support, which led to frustrations and difficulties, some of them ongoing.
From their work in the wider community, Stiwdio 37 also highlighted that the dissemination of information post diagnosis is sporadic at best. So, we both acknowledge that there is an issue, so how will the Welsh Government improve that consistency of information provided to individuals with autism or ADHD following their diagnosis across South Wales Central and beyond?

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you to Heledd Fychan for that further question, Llywydd. She points to an important matter, that these are neurodevelopmental conditions, and they can emerge at different points in people’s life course, and the focus and the state of knowledge that there has been on adults, where neurodiversity emerges at that part of their life course, has been less than it has been in the past where children are concerned. So, the state of knowledge and understanding is itself developing. The Welsh Government has invested already £11.5 million in the neurodivergence improvement programme. Earlier last month, on 14 November, Julie Morgan, the Minister responsible, made an oral statement here on the floor of the Senedd, in which she set out how a further £12 million programme will be focused to do some of the things that the Member has highlighted here today. On the provision of information, as I said in my original answer, Llywydd, that first report evaluating the autism code of practice, while it does find good practice—in Aneurin Bevan, for example—it points to the need to standardise the information that's available and to make sure that all parts of Wales follow the best practice that is available here. So, £4.5 million of the £12 million has been released into the service this year, and attending to that provision of information is an important part of what that £4.5 million is intended to support.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, as you know, I proposed the Autism (Wales) Bill some years ago, and, in my view, it was one way to tackle the gaps in inconsistency in provision across Wales. Indeed, it was a Bill that intended to work alongside Welsh Government strategies and policies, not against them, and perhaps it was an opportunity to show the autism community that there is a genuine cross-party commitment to improving their lives. Of course, the Government chose not to go down that path, and yet waits for a diagnosis continue to be exceptionally high, and even post diagnosis there are gaps and inconsistency in the provision available. Therefore, First Minister, can you tell us one positive action that has addressed these gaps in provision since my Bill fell? And given that there has been very little progress, will the Welsh Government now reconsider introducing legislation in this area?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think there still is a cross-party commitment to improving services for people with neurodiverse conditions, and the neurodiverse improvement programme is just one example of work that has been put in place since those debates some time ago. So, the combination of new investment, better understanding, a recent workforce survey to make sure that we can improve the training available to people who come into contact with people with neurodivergent conditions, all of those, I think, are practical actions that the Welsh Government can point to in taking forward the cross-party commitment to doing more to help people with a condition. Because, while waiting times are too long, far more people get a service today than ever used to get a service because far more people are aware of these conditions and far more people present themselves for help than ever before. So, in a paradoxical way, it is a success of raising awareness, it is a success of having more services in place that brings that demand, that latent demand to the surface.

Hefin David AC: Well, First Minister, my legs are still aching after taking my autistic daughter trampolining at Buzz with the Sparrows additional learning needs group, which is a voluntary group in Caerphilly, and they do amazing work.
I know what the journey is like when you go for a diagnosis, but I do not think that a Bill is the answer; where I think the answer lies is in the children's commissioner's 'No Wrong Door' report, which demonstrates that wherever you enter the system, you are then taken through that system with effective guidance and support. A lot of that is there; you've recognised the positive steps in Aneurin Bevan University Health Board. I think also, we need to look at behaviours, those behaviours that young people and adults are exhibiting prior to diagnosis, and supporting that as well; and I know I've had conversations with the Deputy Minister about that too. So, would you therefore commit the Government to continuing to support that 'no wrong door' approach?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm quite certain that the 'no wrong door' approach is the right one. Young people with complex needs can break through the surface of services at almost any point, and what we don't want is for those young people then to simply be referred elsewhere for help. Whichever door you come through, we want services to be equipped to give those families information and advice, and if they do need more specialist services, to be supported on their journey towards them. That is why that recent workforce survey was undertaken, because for that to work effectively, for that 'no wrong door' approach to work effectively, everybody in the system needs to have a sufficient level of awareness, understanding and training to be able to offer that level of support.

Cost-of-living Pressures

Joyce Watson AC: 4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the UK Government's autumn statement on cost-of-living pressures in mid and west Wales? OQ60398

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the autumn statement contained no targeted support for people in Mid and West Wales, those people who are struggling with the cost-of-living crisis and facing incredibly difficult decisions this winter. The statement was also a disaster for public services upon which residents of the whole of Wales depend.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. And, as you said in reply to Alun Davies last week, nothing in the autumn statement will help those at the sharpest end of the cost-of-living crisis. Perhaps that is the intention, though, of this Tory Government. I was astonished to read the Welsh Conservative leader's recent question to the climate change Minister, asking what assessment she had made of whether people deliberately make themselves homeless to get affordable housing. I find that fairly incredible. Would you like to comment on that, First Minister, and can you outline how your Government has responded to the Chancellor's statement, particularly the cuts to benefits and public services? It only took Liz Truss 49 days to wreak a lifetime of suffering for those people that the leader here had the audacity to ask if they were making themselves deliberately homeless.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree completely with Joyce Watson. To find yourself homeless must be one of the very bleakest things that can possibly happen to somebody. The idea that people make themselves intentionally homeless, that it is, as the former Home Secretary said, 'a lifestyle choice', simply demonstrates the enormous gulf between people whose lives are never touched by such tragedies and those people who have to cope with them all the time. I can't imagine that there are many Senedd Members who have not had to help people who find themselves becoming homeless and who get helped by the system. It is a long and stony road from the moment that you find yourself without a roof over your head to the point where you are able to live in permanent and decent accommodation of your own, and that is because of the enormous stresses and strains that the system is under. The idea that somebody deliberately puts themselves in that position, I think it just tells you everything you need to know about people who believe that that might be the case.
Llywydd, the deliberate decisions of the autumn statement were to put more money into the pockets of those who have money already, and to starve public services and those 4 million people that the Joseph Rowntree Foundation say are living in destitution in contemporary Britain. A very different set of priorities need to be adopted, and this country desperately needs a fresh start to allow that to happen.

James Evans AS: The UK autumn statement did go some way to helping people with cost-of-living pressures: a cut to national insurance, one of the biggest tax cuts in a generation; the rise to the minimum wage; and also, rising benefits in line with inflation, which is something that we've had cross-party support on here for a number of year. But some of the levers to helping people with the cost of living also sit with the Welsh Government. One way in which you can help people with the cost of living is actually getting people into higher skilled, better paid jobs. So, I would like to know what the Welsh Government is doing in mid Wales to help people into higher paid, better skilled jobs, which can help them with the cost-of-living crisis. That is something that the Welsh Government can do to help people who are struggling at this current time.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm going to set to one side the assertions the Member made in the preamble to his question. But let me remind him that Wales has more people in work today than ever before; we have lower unemployment levels than other parts of the United Kingdom; the gap between the rest of the United Kingdom and Wales, as far as people who are outside the labour market is concerned, has halved during the period of devolution; and the Resolution Foundation says that of the jobs that have been created over the last 10 years in Wales, more of them are full time rather than part time, more of them are in the top half of the income distribution than the bottom half, and more of them are taken by women than are taken by men. There is a huge amount that has already been done here in Wales, and there was not a penny piece in the autumn statement to support the work that the Welsh Government does in helping people to secure the very skills that James Evans pointed to.

Child Poverty Rates

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on child poverty rates in South Wales East? OQ60397

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the most recent evidence suggests that 28 per cent of children in Wales are living in relative poverty. Child poverty has deepened as a result of decisions made by successive UK Conservative Governments. We in Wales use all the levers we have available to help us to support those living in poverty.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, First Minister. First Minister, the child poverty rates in my area are a testament of shame. Thirty-six per cent of children in Merthyr live in poverty, and 35 per cent in Caerphilly. Behind those statistics are children who are growing up to go without, whose parents are facing the coming Christmas with despair, wondering how they'll explain to their children why Father Christmas hasn't brought them what they asked for. Child poverty isn't just about skipping meals or empty bellies: it's about blighting children's sense of joy and wonder, and robbing them of the happiness they should get out of being children. One of the structures that keeps those families poor is the cruelty of the UK benefits system, with a two-child cap on benefits that punishes children for being born, and which the End Child Poverty coalition has found affects one in every 10 children in Wales. Will you demand that this cruel policy must be scrapped? And will you make that demand of this current UK Government and the next?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Member's own region vividly demonstrates that differential experience that children in Wales have. Blaenau Gwent has the highest proportion of children living in relative poverty in Wales and, right next door, Monmouthshire has the lowest. And it is that contrast, isn't it, between the experiences of children growing up at the same time, so close to one another. Poverty is a spatial, as well as an individual experience.
Llywydd, I had the privilege of speaking yesterday at the Resolution Foundation's launch of their latest report, talking about inequality and the measures that can address it, and I said then that it was an urgent need to attend to putting money into the pockets of those people who face the worst of destitution here in the United Kingdom—4 million people, as I said in my previous answer, a million of whom are children. And while there are many things that those people need in their lives, the thing they need the most of all, and most urgently, is they need money in their pockets to do the things that other people simply take for granted. The collapse of the social security system as a genuine safety net for people who fall into periods in their lives affected by ill health, or accidents, or all the other things that the social security system is there to do, is reflected in that astonishing figure of 4 million people, not just living in poverty, but in destitution, and it will be a job for an incoming Labour Government to rebuild that social security system, and I hope that they will put the needs of children at the very forefront of that effort.

Natasha Asghar AS: First Minister, latest figures have shown that 28 per cent of all children in Wales are living in relative income poverty, the equivalent of around eight children in a class of 30. The Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee released a damning report recently saying that the Welsh Government has no clear plan or ambition to tackle child poverty. Labour has been directly responsible for tackling poverty in Wales for around about more than two decades, yet it's clear that successive Labour Governments have sadly failed. So, First Minister, will you take heed of the committee's damning report and follow the Welsh Conservative calls by drawing up a coherent and robust strategy to end child poverty? And if the Government fails to do this, they will continue to fail the children of Wales, which I don't think any of us, in any party here, want to see. So, First Minister, I appreciate your answer to my colleague Delyth Jewellpreviously, but what's the plan in action now, First Minister, for us?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, you need nerves of steel to stand up on the Conservative benches here and complain about child poverty. Does the Member not know—? Does she not know that in the last Labour Government, child poverty fell, in Wales and in the United Kingdom, year after year after year? [Interruption.] And it is still your party, it's when your party, which has all the major levers of poverty under their control, when they came into power, that the deliberate decisions taken have led to thousands of children, hundreds of thousands of children living in poverty who need not be in poverty. [Interruption.] This is preventable poverty. Llywydd, I hear opposition party Members shouting at me in their total denial of responsibility for what they have done. Here in Wales, every single day, we do things to protect children in Wales from the policies of your party, and you have the nerve—you have the nerve—to stand up here and ask me about what we are doing.

Alun Davies AC: Of course, to eradicate poverty you need a partnership of governments committed to eradicating poverty. We know that the eradication of poverty is in the DNA of this Government. We learnt last week that the UK Government's autumn statement moved money from Wales to London and took money from the poor to pay for tax cuts for the rich. Yesterday we learnt from the Resolution Foundation that not only have we had a decade and a half of stagnation, but most families in Wales will end the current UK Parliament with a lower standard of living than at the beginning, and the lowest standard of living in our lifetimes, and that is what is creating poverty. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that what we need from a UK Government is an absolute commitment and focus to eradicating poverty and inequality, and what we don't need is any more eulogies to Margaret Thatcher?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Chancellor—[Interruption.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Allow the First Minister to answer the question. You've given him a period of reflection now in which he can construct his answer.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Conservative benches in the Senedd think that they can cover their shame by shouting, but it doesn't work, and it certainly doesn't work amongst the people whose lives are affected by the policies that they pursue. The Chancellor did not mention children once in the whole of his autumn statement, despite everything we know that has happened in the lives of those who needed his help the most. I entirely agree with Alun Davies that we need a Government that is determined—absolutely as determined to put the interests of those children at the top of the agenda as Margaret Thatcher was willing to put the interests of those that she supported at the top of hers.

Grass-roots Sport

John Griffiths AC: 6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to promote and encourage participation in grass-roots sport? OQ60399

Mark Drakeford AC: We are supporting grass-roots sports clubs across Wales with the £31 million invested through Sport Wales in this financial year.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, one of the many wonderful benefits of being a grandparent and having grandchildren is to take them to a number of activities—football, tennis, swimming and cricket—and see first-hand the wonderful work of volunteers and grass-roots sports clubs as well as leisure trusts such as Newport Live. Also, one of the great benefits, of course, of being an MS is to work with local sports clubs. Two of those in my constituency, Newport Saints football club and Undy football club in Severnside, are very ambitious to grow. They already provide opportunities for several hundred young people, and people of all ages, boys and girls, to take part in football and indeed other physical activities on a weekly basis.
It's really important, I believe, that we build networks and partnerships between organisations like the Football Association of Wales, Sport Wales, leisure trusts and professional sports clubs, to allow those clubs to grow and develop in the way that they would like. I'd just like your confirmation that the Welsh Government will continue to support that joint working, those partnerships and those networks so that grass-roots sports can provide ever more opportunities for our communities here in Wales, with all the social, physical and health and well-being benefits that they bring.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank John Griffiths for that, Llywydd. Of course, he's right; it's a privilege that we have in the jobs that we do, and sometimes in our own lives, to see directly the work that those fantastic organisations in all our communities carry out. They do deserve to be supported by partnerships between and with those public organisations who are able to help and support them in the work that they do. The Welsh Government and Sport Wales met very recently with the Football Association of Wales to discuss their recent audit. They've been auditing the number and condition of football sites across Wales—pitches, pavilions, changing rooms and so on—to make sure that we are investing in those places where the genuine diversity of the Welsh community can be drawn in to participation in sport in exactly the way that John Griffiths said. And there are wider partnerships again, aren't there? The community-focused schools programme is another way in which that community effort can be supported.
I was fortunate, Llywydd, only a couple of weeks ago, to be at Fitzalan High School here in Cardiff, the single greatest investment in a twenty-first century school that we will make in this Senedd term. And the reason that the investment is at the level that it is is because all the facilities of that school are there to be used by the wider community, including Canton football club and Canton rugby club, if I'm allowed to name check a couple of organisations in my own constituency. But it's true in John Griffiths's constituency as well—Newport High School in Bettws isanother example of where investment allows the supporting of that wider group of people and organisations who, whether it's in playing, coaching, volunteering or even just turning up to watch, make their contribution to the positive impact that sport can make in the lives of Welsh people.

The Live Fear Free Helpline

Buffy Williams AS: 7. Will the First Minister provide an update on the number of people in Wales who access support via the Live Fear Free helpline? OQ60395

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Buffy Williams for that, Llywydd? Next year marks the twentieth anniversary of the fully funded Live Fear Free helpline in Wales. In the year to March 2023, it received 34,348 contacts as part of the national strategy to tackle violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.

Buffy Williams AS: This month I completed my Rhondda-specific domestic abuse and violence report and held a conference last Thursday with partners, statutory and non-statutory support providers and community members to discuss the extent of the problem and how we can achieve fear-free Valleys. In Rhondda, between May 2022 and May 2023, South Wales Police recorded 2,605 domestic abuse and violence incidents. This is 674 more incidents than the next greatest area in Rhondda Cynon Taf and Merthyr. In two of our towns, DAV incidents are reported in 1 in 10 households.
As part of the report, I met with victims who received support from dedicated professionals at the Safer Rhondda Centre in Tonypandy, and others who had called the Live Fear Free helpline. One recommendation that all victims who'd called the Live Fear Free helpline raised with me was the need to signpost to local support services. Will the First Minister consider this recommendation and explore the possibility of creating a database of local DAV support providers for Live Fear Free helpline advisers to signpost?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Buffy Williams very much for that further question and congratulate her, of course, on the work that she's been doing on this issue in her community. I know that my colleague Jane Hutt spoke at the conference that Buffy Williams organised last weekend, and the figures that the Member has set out for us this afternoon are very sobering indeed.
The Live Fear Free helpline is one of the ways in which we can help people whose lives are affected by the sort of violence that Buffy Williams has outlined. I had the opportunity myself some time ago to visit a call centre in Wrexham, in Lesley Griffiths's constituency, and to see how calls were responded to as they came into the helpline. I was very struck there by the fact that call handlers were able to call up on the screen very local sources of help for people. So, I'll take away the idea that the Member has put to us this afternoon and make sure that there is a database of local support services available through the Live Fear Free helpline, so that it can include an updated version of services available in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 8. Luke Fletcher.

The Provision of Apprenticeships

Luke Fletcher AS: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to increase the provision of apprenticeships? OQ60400

Mark Drakeford AC: Despite the loss of European social fund money and our ever-declining budget, this Government will go on investing in quality apprenticeships that match the needs of the Welsh economy and provide our young people with successful futures.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for the response, First Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: Last week, the Minister for Economy launched the Welsh Government's economic missions. Priority area 2 emphasises the need to support young people and their access to training and employment opportunities, and yet we're expecting the number of new entrants into apprenticeship programmes to fall off a cliff edge. An initial analysis from the further education sector in response to proposed Welsh Government cuts for 2024-25 indicates that the total reduction to the apprenticeship programme will be 24.5 per cent. The sector warns that this will result in 10,000 fewer apprenticeship starts on programmes in 2024-25, a reduction of approximately 50 per cent, the most rapid decline in training opportunities since devolution, and that's not to mention the loss of jobs in a work-based learning workforce.Given the outcry from the sector and the consequences of such a cut, will the Welsh Government re-examine its spending plans before it publishes its draft budget later this month? The development of Wales's future workforce is absolutely essential to our economic prosperity.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Luke Fletcher for that supplementary question.

Mark Drakeford AC: I don't agree with him that new entrants will fall off a cliff edge. The Welsh Government will invest over £100 million—over £100 million—in apprenticeship programmes in the next financial year. Last week, the leader of Plaid Cymru was urging me to make sure that there were no cuts in funding to agriculture in Wales. Today, the Member wants me to ensure that there are no cuts to funding in apprenticeships in Wales. I say to him what I said to his leader last week: if you are faced with a budget that has £1.3 billion less to do everything that we want to do next year, there's no part of the Welsh Government's budget that can be untouched. And every time somebody makes a plea that this particular spending area should be an exception, that person has a responsibility to explain to me where else they would find that money.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths, to make that statement.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. The legislative statement on the Senedd Cymru (electoral candidate lists) Bill has been withdrawn. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Gareth Davies AS: I'd like to call for a statement, please, from the Minister for Health and Social Services on what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that bipolar disorder receives parity of treatment, and is considered with equal importance to other severe mental health illnesses such as schizophrenia and psychosis. I'd also like the Minister to outline what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure earlier diagnosis for bipolar disorder, which currently averages at 11.9 years after first informing a clinician of the symptoms. Two per cent of the adult population in Wales are estimated to be living with bipolar, and sadly, as many as one in five people with bipolar take their own lives.
Other conditions such as first-episode psychosis have their own specialist care pathway, and this is soon to be the case with eating disorders, too, which is a great change. A specialist care pathway does not currently exist for bipolar disorder and the treatment is too generic. The creation of a specialist care pathway should actually save the NHS money in the long run, too. I would like to ask the Minister whether there are any plans to specialise the treatment of bipolar to ensure parity with other serious mental illnesses. What is the Minister doing to ensure earlier diagnosis for bipolar, which is currently averaging roughly two years longer than currently in England? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you'll be aware, the Welsh Government does have a mental health strategy and the Minister obviously gives funding to all local health boards, who are then responsible for ensuring that the services they provide for mental health illnesses are distributed in the most appropriate way. You mentioned several mental health illnesses in your request for a statement, and we would assume that health boards would put the funding around those illnesses and around the services to ensure that their local populationis able to be treated as appropriate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a statement regarding school breakfast clubs. You may be aware that some local authorities, because of financial pressures, are exploring, including Rhondda Cynon Taf council, introducing a fee for the childcare element prior to the half an hour of free breakfast club. Many constituents, not surprisingly, have contacted me, hugely concerned about this. It may not sound like a lot—£1 a day—but it is a flat charge that's being proposed of £60 per term. And for those families who are really, really struggling—we know the success of the breakfast clubs, why they were established and so on. So, can I ask for a statement updating about what conversations have taken place with local authorities regarding any proposals to schools breakfast clubs, and if there are any plans to update on guidance provided? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I fully appreciate what you're saying that, for many families, £1 a day is a significant amount of funding. And as you say, Welsh Government brought forward the breakfast clubs for a very specific purpose, and they've been very successful. Welsh Government pays for the breakfast clubs and obviously, then, local authorities have to look at the funding that they have available for childcare, and this is obviously a discussion that's been ongoing through the budgets.

Sarah Murphy AS: I would like to request a statement again about the attention deficit hyperactivity disorder medication shortages that are taking place at the moment across the UK. I asked for a statement previously and, at the time, the manufacturer was saying that things should be resolved between October and December this year, but, unfortunately now, that has been extended until likely April 2024. ADHD UK have said that more than a quarter of ADHD patients in the UK have had no medication since the initial patient safety warning went out in September 2023. As you can imagine, people are distressed. This is impacting children and adults. People are not able to do their jobs properly. They're not able to fulfil their caring responsibilities either.
I just met with the Royal College of Psychiatrists. They've got a wonderful database now where they can kind of see where people are, in what region, and how people are struggling, and target those interventions, and target that support and messaging. And I was just wondering what can Welsh Government do to work with our health boards to make sure that people are okay during this very, very concerning time. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, as you referred, due to an increase in global demand and manufacturing issues, the supply of a number of medicines that are used to treat ADHD is currently disrupted. It's affecting all parts of the UK, and the supply position is still expected to improve by the end of this year. And we would expect the disruption to have been completely resolved by February. It is taking some additional time for local supplies at community pharmacies to stabilise. Supplies of other preparations that contain methylphenidate—the same active ingredient as some of the drugs—have been resolved in recent weeks.
You asked what we can do as a Government, and we will continue to work very closely with the UK Government, the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, NHS Wales, general practitioners and community pharmacies, so that patients right across Wales are able to continue to receive the medicines they need.

Delyth Jewell AC: Ambulance delays are now so expected and normal that a hospital in my area has had to install fans outside its accident and emergencydepartment to try to disperse the air pollution coming from the exhausts of waiting emergency vehicles. The health board has installed the fans outside the Grange in Cwmbran to make a safer environment for staff, but I'd like a statement, please, addressing the ongoing crisis situation, which has had to be planned for and accepted like this. Nation Cymru reported this week the longest an ambulance was waiting outside the A&E with a patient inside was 16 and a half hours, and the average time is two hours.
Earlier this year I raised concerns in the Senedd that ambulances were being used as waiting rooms. I raised this same concern about the air pollution coming from waiting ambulances, and it seems the situation has got worse. We're going into the winter now, when cold temperatures will mean that there's even more of an imperative for waiting ambulances to keep engines running, to keep the patients warm, and all air pollution will just get worse.
Trefnydd, we've just passed legislation in this Senedd to protect clean air. Surely, one of the most urgently needed places to have clean air is outside hospitals where people are already poorly. So, could a statement please set out what steps are going to be taken to address this urgently?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Minister has been very clear with health boards on her expectation for improved ambulance handover performance to free up ambulance capacity, and is investing in same-day emergency care and extra community beds, as well as integrated solutions with our social care services, to improve patient flow through hospitals and tackle ambulance handover delays. Each health board has been given an additional £3 million to deliver improvements in these areas.

John Griffiths AC: Business Minister, this week in the House of Commons, MPs thankfully voted to speed up the compensation scheme for victims of the NHS infected blood scandal, and UK Ministers will now have to set up a body to run the scheme within three months of a new Bill becoming law. This was rightly I think characterised as an important step forward in what has been an extraordinarily long fight for justice, though of course it isn't the end. My constituents Colin and Janet Smith, in Newport East, Minister, were among families in Wales whose children were victims of receiving contaminated blood, or blood products contaminated with HIV or hepatitis C. And tragically their son, also named Colin, died in 1990, after contracting HIV and hepatitis C—young Colin having been diagnosed with haemophilia as a baby. I wonder, Minister, if we might have a statement from Welsh Government on the implications of this vote for discussions between Welsh Government and UK Government on how compensation and the compensation scheme would be administered and delivered to families here in Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. I think you're right, it was certainly a very important vote. It made me think of all the work that Julie Morgan did in a previous life, when she was an MP, and the discussions we had back in the early—in the last decade; about 2011 I remember having discussions with you. And I think it is a very, very important and a landmark vote, really. I'm not aware of any discussions that the Minister for Health and Social Services has had in relation to it, but I know she will be watching this with interest, and I will ask her to bring forward a written statement.

Cefin Campbell AS: May I ask for an update from the Minister for Economy on the critical position of banking in our rural communities? Over the last few weeks, we've seen a disastrous situation, where banks, or bank branches, are closing one after another. And in those few areas where there are remaining branches, they are closing in areas such as Pwllheli, Llanelli, Builth Wells, Newtown and St Davids. And we've also seen, of course, a cut in services, such as the disgraceful decision by HSBC to scrap its Welsh language helpline, and Lloyds Bank have also scrapped their mobile service in Crickhowell.
Now, the Minister for Economy has talked on a number of occasions in this Chamber about what's developed recently regarding Banc Cambria, and we welcome this scheme very, very much. But given that the Monmouthshire Building Society have withdrawn from the scheme, the Minister said that he would work in order to look at all possible options in terms of creating a community bank for Wales. Can I ask, therefore, for a statement on the situation from the point of view of developing this important bank for Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you raise a very important point. We've certainly seen a significant number of closures of banks, right across our communities here in Wales. Obviously, it's a reserved matter, but, clearly, something that Welsh Government takes a very close interest in. You mentioned HSBC's decision to remove the Welsh language line. I know the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language made representations I'm not saying they're going to change their mind, but I think it's really important that they understand the strength of feeling we have here in Wales. As you said, the Minister for Economy did commit to working in the way you suggest, and he will be very happy to bring forward an update, probably in the new year.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Trefnydd, the issue of Ty Llwyd quarry in Ynysddu has been raised numerous times in the Siambr by myself and my colleague Delyth Jewell. This area, on the face of it, looks beautiful, but it hides a dark secret, as the notorious US chemical company Monsanto dumped and buried unknown quantities of toxic waste in the ground. Monsanto have long since gone, without paying a penny in compensation for the toxic legacy they have left. Meanwhile, local residents are still having to face the consequences of these environmental crimes. The Labour-run Caerphilly County Borough Council, who are known to downplay the dangers posed by Ty Llwyd over the years, have admitted that the climate crisis and the high levels of rain we are now having makes managing the threat posed by the dumped chemicals more difficult. A spokesperson for the local authority said, and I quote:
'The challenge of managing the leachate is a seasonal issue which has been exacerbated by our changing climate and resultant periods of substantial rainfall during the winter months.'
Minister, is it time for this Government to acknowledge that local authorities and Natural Resources Wales on their own are unable to tackle the growing threat posed by toxic sites left as a result of our industrial heritage? Can we have a statement on the creation of a strategy to remedy these toxic sites as swiftly and effectively as possible and pursue the polluters with all the powers at our disposal?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, this is an issue where we absolutely have to work in partnership. We can't leave it up to local authorities or NRW. The Welsh Government works very closely with all our partners in relation to remediation and obviously ensuring that polluters do pay. I think you're quite right, it is really—. That will be a matter for NRW to enforce, but it's very important that Welsh Government work in collaboration.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Trefnydd.

Point of Order

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I've accepted a point of order from Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. In First Minister's questions, the Member for Mid and West Wales, who isn't in her place now, alluded to a written question that I'd put for answer from the Welsh Government about homelessness and people deliberately making themselves homeless. I referenced in that written question that those remarks were made by the director of housing and adult services at Cardiff Council to a scrutiny committee on 20 November. They were not my comments. They were reference to a council that I cover in my role as a regional Member. And I would be grateful if the Member would correct the Record to show that, rather than try and imply that they were my comments and my thoughts. They clearly were not, and the question clearly emphasises the point that I was referencing another council function that is responsible in my electoral area.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you for that clarification. We will check the Record to make sure everything is correct and accurate. We'll get back to you on that matter.

3. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Foundational Economy

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 3 is a statement by the Minister for Economy on the foundational economy. And I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I have previously outlined why the foundational economy is a programme for government commitment and a central part of our economic mission. It provides vital goods and services that we all rely on, including care and health, food, housing, energy, and construction. Estimates indicate that it can account for around 40 per cent of Welsh employment. Growing the foundational or the everyday economy is a cross-Government priority. The collective support of Ministers is helping to embed the approach across our portfolios. In June this year the Cabinet committed to develop foundational economy plans in three areas of significant investment: transport, energy and housing.
Public transport is a core foundational economy service. I want it to also become a key local employer within a newly emerging supply chain. Driven by our net-zero targets, some local authorities now operate new, electric buses. Most of that fleet is built overseas, with a small proportion of the fit-out being from Wales. We are analysing the supply chain opportunities, including telematics, ticketing machines and electric retrofit axles to increase Welsh product going into those vehicles. Transport for Wales is also working with the Welsh Automotive Forum to investigate scope for developing local supply capability to re-power the existing fleet. This includes the potential to retrofit electric power trains or longer term hydrogen fuel cells.
I want to specifically highlight Transport for Wales's broader procurement approach. Its recent uniform contract for 2,000 members of staff has been awarded to a consortium of providers, led by Elite Clothing Solutions, who I had the pleasure of visiting last week in Blaenau Gwent. They primarily employ disadvantaged local people. The consortium they lead also includes Brodwaith in Llangefni, Treorchy Sewing Enterprise and Fashion Enter in Newtown. We'll work with stakeholders to promote similarly ambitious approaches that can make a real difference to local people and local economies. In parallel, our commitment to reorganise bus travel in Wales will shift procurement arrangements, giving greater influence on both the service and the supply chain.
Foundational economy benefits are also being secured through the ultra low emission vehicle fund. Homegrown companies like Dragon Charging from Pembrokeshire are already installing and operating part of that network. We will support delivery partners to ensure that next year’s fund delivers further local economic value.

Vaughan Gething AC: In the energy sector, Wales has the natural assets to drive opportunities from renewable power and industry. In the north, the Morlais tidal stream project has created around 100 jobs in the construction phase, with over £25 million of contracts being won between Jones Bros of Ruthin and OBR Construction of Llangefni. We will capture the learning from this so that larger programmes can achieve similar local value for our businesses and communities.
Independent reports suggest that the first gigawatt of Celtic sea floating wind power could sustain around 3,000 jobs and almost £700 million-worth of supply chain opportunities in the coming decade. This is a fiercely competitive supply environment. I am determined that, in Wales, we harness much of this investment to benefit our local economies. This is, of course, a key consideration for us when we consider the future of Tata Steel in Wales. Work is under way to, again, consider supply chain capability, to highlight any gaps, and to link with our innovation and skills programmes.
Across the Government, we are establishing Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru to lead large-scale onshore wind projects to retain as much value in Wales as possible, including, of course, through the supply chain. As part of our co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru, we launched Ynni Cymru on 7 August. Ynni Cymru aims to position Wales at the forefront of development and delivery of smart local energy projects, ensuring that Wales maximises the local value and benefit from these developments.
Our education establishments are already reaching out both to businesses and others to help deliver school courses on renewables. We want the next generation to benefit from our work on energy and the skills and jobs that Wales needs and should create. I have also committed funding this year to Cyfle Building Skills in Carmarthenshire to develop a net-zero work experience programme for plumbing and electrical learners. That should support 120 young people to acquire essential new skills and help them to enter employment.
Progress on the offshore work is still being frustrated by issues created by the Crown Estate’s bidding process. I should say that the Minister for Climate Change had a constructive meeting with the Crown Estate last week. And, as you'd expect, Ministers and officials are working hard to resolve the challenges and to exploit properly for Wales's benefit the opportunities.
Housing is a key foundational economy sector. Data illustrates that 84 per cent of expenditure is spent with Welsh businesses, helping over 1,000 people into employment and creating nearly 800 apprenticeship opportunities. And we'll use this fantastic contribution to our economy to inform how we maximise the value of investment in innovative housing and our optimised retrofit programmes.
In north-east Wales, a collaborative project is establishing a decarbonisation hub, involving academia, communities, businesses and the Welsh Government, and it aims to retrofit 18,000 homes over the next 10 years. It's based in Sage Todz country, in Pen-y-groes, and I look forward to seeing progress on that project over the coming years. That hub will facilitate and accelerate decarbonisation of the region’s housing stock by delivering accredited training programmes in green industries, developing and applying new and innovative materials and products, and accommodating a skilled workforce with expertise to work on decarbonisation schemes. The hub will be a focus for growing the local construction sector. Close relationships will also be developed with organisations including Careers Wales and local schools to encourage career pathways for young people, especially women, into the construction sector and green industries of the future.
I know that capacity within the construction sector supply chain is challenging. In response to this, last year I funded Simply Do, which is a Welsh SME, to work in the housing sector to help address this challenge. They've helped Caredig housing association to source five new local contractors. I have commissioned further work this year to help scale this up. Simply Do is now engaging with five further social landlords to source new, local contractors to help fulfil future housing programmes.
We will continue to help develop and grow the foundational economy. Our progress is encouraging, across the Government and business sectors. I look forward to building on our work to date in the coming year and, of course, to keeping Members up to date. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Paul Davies AC: The foundational economy is intrinsically linked to how we live, and covers everything from the care we receive to the food we eat. As such, there is huge potential in the foundational economy to build resilience in our local economies and strengthen our supply chains. Now, today’s statement refers specifically to the foundational economy plans in three areas of significant investment: transport, energy and housing. In terms of transport, the Minister is right to say that some local authorities now operate new electric buses, though unfortunately not all local authorities have these vehicles. Nevertheless, I’m pleased to hear that there has been some good work done in analysing supply chain opportunities across Wales from the shift to electric buses. And the Minister has today referred to telematics, ticketing machines and electric retrofit axles to increase Welsh products going into the vehicles. This progress in some parts of Wales is of course welcome, but we need to ensure that all parts of Wales are developing local supply capabilities effectively, and so perhaps he could tell us more about how the Welsh Government is rolling out best practice across Wales.
Now, today’s statement also confirms the Welsh Government’s commitment to reorganising bus travel in Wales, and the Minister refers to shifting procurement arrangements to give greater influence on both the service and supply chain. I’d be grateful if the Minister could tell us a little bit about that shifting procurement practice and what it looks like, as well as explain how those new procurement practices are providing better value to the service and, indeed, the supply chain.
The Minister has talked about energy, and I’m delighted that he has referred to Dragon Charging from Pembrokeshire. Today’s statement makes it very clear that the Welsh Government is supporting delivery partners to ensure that next year’s ultra low emission vehicle fund delivers further local economic value, and I hope he can tell us what that support actually looks like. The statement also refers to the Celtic sea floating wind power, which we know could sustain around 3,000 jobs and almost £700 million in supply chain opportunities in the coming decade. The Minister is right to say that this is a fiercely competitive supply environment, and it’s absolutely essential that the Welsh Government and local authorities harness as much of this investment to benefit our local economies. Therefore, I’d be grateful if the Minister could update us on any discussions he’s had with developers and local stakeholders about reinforcing the supply chain opportunities that floating offshore wind offers to those economies, especially in south-west Wales.
The Minister has referred to the establishment of Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, which is intended to lead large-scale onshore wind projects and has a view to retaining as much value in Wales as possible. There has been little information on this development since the Minister for Climate Change announced the appointment of the chief executive back in August. I understand that the company’s due to launch in April 2024, and perhaps the Minister could confirm if that’s still the case and provide a general update on the company’s development. The Welsh Government has made it clear it’s focused on involving Welsh companies and delivering social value to Wales, and I’m keen to understand more about how that’s taking place.
The Minister is right to say that housing is a key foundational economy sector, and there are so many opportunities to build stronger, more resilient local supply chains in this area. I’m pleased to hear that, in north-east Wales, a decarbonisation hub is being established that involves local stakeholders, academia, businesses and the Welsh Government, which aims to retrofit 18,000 homes over the next 10 years. We need to see more of that activity in other parts of Wales, too, and so perhaps the Minister can tell us how he’s spreading that good practice so that other parts of Wales can learn from this project.
Today’s statement makes no reference to building community wealth and the opportunities that that could bring to Wales. As was mentioned earlier in this Chamber, there has been a considerable knock-back in the development of Banc Cambria, and I believe it’s important that we don’t see the proposals for a community bank in Wales lost. I note that the Trefnydd earlier on today mentioned that there was a possibility that the Minister would be bringing forward a statement on this early next year, and I’d be grateful if he could confirm if that is the case. But I’d be grateful if the Minister could today provide an update on discussions around the proposals for a community bank, and any other initiatives that are being considered in relation to building community wealth here in Wales.
And finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I just want to touch on the Welsh Government’s economic contract, which I believe could have an important role in developing some sectors in the foundational economy. For example, there are a small number of large businesses that play an integral role in the food industry, particularly supermarkets, and we have an opportunity through the Government’s economic contract to encourage supermarkets in Wales to increase their use of Welsh producers and suppliers and to improve their supply terms. Therefore, perhaps he could tell us a bit more about how the Welsh Government is using the tools it has, like the economic contract, to encourage larger businesses to use more of the products of our smaller domestic businesses and producers. So, in closing, I thank the Minister for his statement and I look forward to hearing more in this area in the future. Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. Of course, I gave examples in all three of the areas, through my statement, of energy and transport and housing, and that wasn't a mistake; it was the update following the work we're doing, and that's why I say we have got real progress to build on, and I’m grateful for the constructive nature of the comments and questions. 
And I think your first two questions broadly go together. When we're thinking about reorganising the bus sector in Wales, that will allow us to aggregate demand and it should allow us to get more from procurement, which is disparate at present. It should also allow us to make more progress on decarbonisation and then the local return we expect to get from that. And we have a number of actors to work with already in electric buses, which I’ve mentioned, but also the potential for hydrogen bus trials in Wales as well. We are convinced that electric vehicles are part of the answer for the future. We're also convinced that hydrogen will have a role to play as well. And so, given the topography of various parts of Wales, it's possible that hydrogen fuel cells may be the answer, as opposed to electric vehicles. Now, in wanting to see that happen, we need to think about where we get the supply of the hydrogen from—ideally green hydrogen—and also then to think about how we get more manufacturing from that as well. If we're in a position to have greater expectations from people who we're procuring a larger chunk of our service from, I think we can also look to direct a greater expectation in the terms of the procurement of what they do, either in retrofit or in new build as well. So, we are already talking to a number of companies about that, and this is a good example of the cross-over between climate change Ministers and the economy and understanding what's possible and then how we practically act on it.
That also goes, for example, to the point you made about Dragon Charging. I'm pleased that the Member picked up the reference to Pembrokeshire—at least one of them; there are more that could come, to think about what we're able to do. So, they've been supported with some support from the ultra low emission vehicle fund. We're also looking at the different things we can do through our mainstream projects. So, if you think about the work that Business Wales are already doing, looking at how those opportunities exist, both with the business advice as well as helping them to understand where those opportunities lie, it also should be made more visible by some of the work we continue to do in the different sectors of our manufacturing action plan. I'm very, very interested in continually promoting the fact that manufacturing has a larger share of our economy in Wales than the UK overall. Advanced manufacturing does have a good future, and I was actually pleased to hear the Chancellor talk about advanced manufacturing last week. I'd like to see more go into the practical support for that, but, actually, to have a conversation about the future of manufacturing on a UK and a Welsh level should be good news for all of us. 
And when it then comes to some of the people we are working with on some of the future for that supply, it's part of the reason we've been having conversations with companies from Japan who are already investing and thinking about pilots that could go further on the creation of green hydrogen, the use of it and what that would mean. And, indeed, it was a key part of the conversation that I had with RWE when I was in Germany recently, thinking about, again, what they're doing in Pembrokeshire and some of the joint enterprises they have. So, all of those things are potential, and we're still at the demonstrator phase in many of these things, but, actually, understanding what we get from that will have real value, I think, in confirming the scale of the opportunity that does exist for us here in Wales. The risk is, if we don't do that, all of those demonstrators will take place in other parts of the world and the supply lines will be created around them, and they’ll be mature and we’ll then be importing that and will only have the localised maintenance work.
Finally, given that you asked about Banc Cambria and community wealth building, I think community wealth building is more than just access to local financial support. It's part of it. It's part of the reason we talk so much about procurement, about how you retain wealth in an area, looking to build on what you spend, and why. And that does go into the conversations we have about our economic contract where we have regular conversations with larger employers about where their supply chain comes from, who's taking part in them, and not just the people they directly employ, but all of the contracts around it. And, actually, in the post-COVID world, lots of businesses are looking to shorten their supply chains. So, actually, for our larger businesses that are here already, and those we still expect we’ll attract in the future, that localised supply chain will be more important to them and to us in understanding the value of their investment.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank the Minister for his statement.

Luke Fletcher AS: At its most fundamental level, the economy is about people, isn't it? So, the foundational economy lines up with this principle pretty neatly. I welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has outlined a series of priorities for strengthening the foundational economy, but, as ever, the devil is going to be in the detail.
It's right that transport, energy and housing are priorities, but, much like the Conservative spokesperson, I was concerned around the lack of mention of community wealth building. Of course, I fully accept that it goes beyond banking, but banking, in particular, is a concern for a number of Members across the Chamber. So, I am looking forward to the Minister’s statement in the new year on a community bank for Wales.
Now, on transport, particularly I'm interested in what the Minister has said in relation to supply chain opportunities in potentially producing more here in Wales. I can see that there would be a reliance on Transport for Wales to deliver some of this. I'd be interested to know how involved Welsh Government will be in the processes set out, because, while this is good to see on paper, you can also see, on paper, and in reality, TfW struggling to deliver what it is supposed to now, and it’s important that we get this right to maximise Wales’s ability to produce much of its own needs.
Now, there's an ambition to grow the small and medium-sized sector as well, something that has been discussed only last week in your previous statement. Our domestic SMEs continue to struggle with a lack of support for succession planning, a skills gap in the workforce and barriers to innovation. There's also the issue of regional collaboration with local public institutions, something that I raised last week as instrumental to the model of the German mittelstand.
Though the public services boards established by the Welsh Government are meant to be conduits for this within the context of the foundational economy, the most recent report from Audit Wales has noted serious concerns with their performance. Of particular relevance was the fact that only one public services board in Wales was described as having a good level of involvement with SMEs through the regional business forums. This reflects a broader trend of a lack of place leadership in fostering regional governance institutions, which has been instrumental in entrenching regional economic inequality across the UK. So, we need to better empower anchor institutions in our local communities, such as universities and small businesses, to take a leading role in regional economic development, as has been pioneered through the Preston model of community wealth building. So, to that end, how does this fit into the Minister’s vision?
Now, building a resilient and dynamic foundational economy also depends on a long-term policy framework, because, by the very nature of the service they provide, actors in the foundational economy are unable to provide the kinds of immediate and tangible fiscal returns that would normally be expected of state investment in the private sector. But, as has been noted by the Institute of Welsh Affairs, among others, the Welsh Government’s generalised, sector-based approach to economic development risks crowding out services in the foundational economy, as they are forced to compete with more commercially oriented bodies. Of course, this broad-brush approach to the Welsh economy has been apparent ever since the dismantling of the Welsh Development Agency. So, we need to think here about how we might give a specific remit to either a new institution or an existing one to oversee long-term structural improvements in the foundational economy. Has the Minister given any thought to this?
I further acknowledge that the Welsh Government has set up a £4.5 million foundational economy challenge fund as well to support a series of experimental projects in this area. But at what point to we move on from an experimental stage and towards a more permanent policy platform? And will this then also include the establishment of a foundational economy academy in Wales, as was recommended by the scoping and feasibility study that you commissioned earlier this year?
Finally, the Minister highlights the Crown Estate as being a barrier. We have long held that view on these benches, and it’s good to see cross-party agreement on this. But to what degree is the Minister pushing this with his UK counterparts in the current Government, and is he pushing it with Labour’s leadership in Westminster?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. We continue to make the case to all stakeholders about the future of the Crown Estate and Wales's stake within it. On your point around how we're supporting the broader approach on the foundational economy, we continue to work with Cynnal Cymru to help build works and capability across a range of areas and how to promote that effectively across Wales.
On sectors and place, I don't accept that there is a hard barrier between having a focus on key sectors, when we understand that we have real growth opportunity. If you think about the creative sector, it's growing significantly. The third largest creative cluster in the UK is here in Wales, after London and Manchester, and that is because we have had a focus on that, together with tech and a whole range of other areas where we've got real assets to think about and to offer and to see expanded in.
But we're also interested in place. If you think about the work that we've done on Arfor, for example, there's a place-based approach there that is also about the language. Think about the project the Global Centre of Rail Excellence—looking at the education Minister in the room—that is a significant opportunity that we have created with public sector-led investment. We're looking for private sector investment and there should be opportunities for lots of good jobs there that would not come were we not leading that investment potential in the first place. The market would not have delivered that on its own.
So, actually, this is a Government that takes place seriously, alongside sectors, and you'll see that in the work that we are doing, not just through the co-operation agreement but the work we have already commissioned through the OECD, looking at whether our structures are in the optimum place to do so. I think that goes into the point you were making about public sector boards as well. I actually think that it's our economic regions that are the more important place, together with individual local authorities, when it comes to what they can do together around practically supporting the foundation economy. The Preston and the Plymouth models are things that we are interested in as a Government and, indeed, local authorities are as well. They're especially interested in how they use their own spend to advantage local businesses more and more and more. And there has been real progress in the last 10 years in doing that. I think local authorities themselves could tell you a good story about what they're doing. And because we're looking for those economic regions, led by local authorities, to take more of a leadership role and a partnership role with the Government on economic development, you can expect them not just to look at larger magnet projects, but what they can do together to support the local foundation economy.
On buses, there will, of course, be a Bill before the Senedd. There'll be scrutiny on that, not just on the law and what it says, but, actually, when it comes to the ambition and the application of the way in which we want to re-regulate buses to deliver a better service with better value for the money we spend, and what that then means in where the buses come from, how they're maintained and operated, the opportunity for retrofit, and, indeed, the opportunity for new bus build too.
I look forward to updating Members, not just in the Chamber but around and outside it, on what we are doing with Banc Cambria and the vision for community banking. We are still talking with interested groups about how we take that forward. It isn't a question of us simply giving up on the idea—far from it. I hope to have something constructive to say that I think will build on the genuine cross-party consensus that there is in this Chamber, which is a real strength, that we want to see a return to more high-street banking availability and Banc Cambria is a good model that we continue to work with to try and do so.

Mike Hedges AC: If we were discussing the foundation economy in London, they would identify banking and finance, in Silicon Valley, they would identify ICT, and, in Cambridge, science, research, engineering and technology; in Wales, we identify mainly the support economy. I welcome the commitment to supporting the renewable energy sector, where Wales has the natural assets to drive opportunity in renewables, including tidal energy. Is there any update on the Swansea tidal lagoon? It is important that universities, further education colleges and industry work together to develop this sector so that we can all benefit. Minister, you said that the estimates indicate that the foundation economy in Wales represents around 40 per cent of Welsh employment. What percentage of GVA does it produce and how does the median pay in these industries compare to the median pay in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: I haven't got the figures to hand on the GVA contribution to the foundation economy, but I'm sure I can get them to Mike. There is a point, though, about the balance in the economy that we need. So, an everyday economy that we rely on for a range of our goods and services can have real value in it, but it's about all the things that also go into a sense of place as well. Because if you don't have some of that economy working, then, actually, it does affect how people feel about where they work, and I think that's quite an important factor when we consider why we're doing some of this, as well as the fact that there are lots of people in employment in the sector.
And on the tidal lagoon, I've had a number of conversations with the leader of Swansea Council, Rob Stewart, and he is very much interested in keeping a revised vision for a Swansea tidal lagoon with real economic benefit around it, as well as the opportunity to generate renewable power. I'd be more than happy to have a conversation with him and other Swansea Members and, indeed, the council, about the current stage of development proposals and what that might mean for the future.

Hefin David AC: The introduction of the new degree apprenticeships in rail engineering and construction demonstrates a commitment to the foundational economy, and further education, also, throughout Wales, has huge links to small and medium-sized enterprises that go beyond just the provision of courses, but also development of courses and the development of students. So, two things: what role does he see the future of FE playing in that, particularly with a view on the concerns about the future of apprenticeship targets? And also a conversation is needed about degree apprenticeships and how they are supported and funded if the educational base of the foundational economy is to thrive.

Vaughan Gething AC: Hefin David has been really consistent in his interest in this whole area of policy, not just because he's done a report commissioned by the education Minister, but, actually, before then as well, and in particular in the area of degree apprenticeships. The budget challenge is really difficult, but we'll carry on investing in degree apprenticeships. We'll carry on investing in lots of broader apprenticeships as well. The challenge is, and I've said this before, that I don't think we're going to meet our target in this term. It will take at least another year to get to the 125,000 that we pledged at the start of this term, which was a key feature in our manifesto. That highlights the extraordinary level of the budget challenge we have.
Despite that, I think there is good reason for optimism about what we are doing. Compared to England, we have chosen, over a sustained period of time, partly with former European funds, to invest in the apprenticeship and the skills base. We have a system that delivers better completion rates and actually is a more expanded version of the one over our borders. I still think, even through the difficult choices we'll have, we'll continue to invest more and deliver more apprentices in areas where there is a real future in the world of work.
I think your point about further education—. I continue to see further education having a key role to play in both the delivery of those apprenticeships, but much more broadly than that as well. So, myself and the education Minister have had conversations in the run-up to the budget about some of the challenges in both the choice that we have to make, but also about the fact that FE has a real future.
When I was in Germany recently, it was a happy coincidence that a group of further education leaders were in Germany as well meeting counterparts, looking at the way in which they generated a culture over decades of not just what the state did to invest in future skills, but, actually, the way that businesses themselves invested. That's one of the key challenges the Resolution Foundation set out yesterday in its report on a stagnation nation, thinking about 15 years of lost wage growth across the UK. It's actually about the fact that there is a cultural difference between what the Government itself invests and the longer term approach taken to investment, and that requires UK choices, as well as what we're able to do here, but also that businesses themselves invest more in their workforce as a whole in other parts of Europe than we do across the UK. So, some of that cultural change is part of the challenge and what we look for in the way that we work with different employers, both small and medium-sized employers, and, indeed, large employers, of which I know the Member has a good example in his constituency at GE, where they have invested even more in their own apprenticeship programme.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. Thank you for outlining the progress that's been made in transport, energy and housing, which is excellent, and lots of room for further developments there. I just want to ask you why in June the Cabinet did not commit to making any sort of significant investment in food, given that it's such a crucial part of the everyday economy, and we are investing a great deal of money in improving food for school meals. Given the fragility of supplies of fruit and veg, I appreciate the work that you've done with Blas Gwent, for example, to deliver vegetables and fruit for Cardiff, Carmarthen and Monmouthshire, but it isn't nearly enough to meet the demand. So, we are reliant on these fragile supplies coming from abroad, and that means money going out of our economy. But, in particular, I wondered what consideration has been given to using vertical farming, which is particularly useful in the winter months, to ensure security of supplies and that can be powered by 100 per cent renewables. It seems to me a quick win for decarbonising our food, which is one of the biggest contributors to reducing our carbon emissions.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think the way in which agriculture moves in the future is a key aspect of reducing our emissions. It’s one of the sectors where we’re looking for a sector-wide plan in terms of decarbonisation and it’s part of the net-zero skills plan. That’s reflected in both the choices and the interests of myself, the climate change Minister, and indeed the rural affairs Minister as well. And that also then leads to how you produce more effectively and in a way that considers the environmental impact as well, in terms of the food production we want to see carrying on in Wales.
And actually, we’ve had lots of work already done on public sector food procurement, so thinking about how we look at the buyer side, and improvements that are taking place, as well as the things that we can do on the supply side as well. So, it’s about £85 million-worth every year we put into public sector food. Of that, we think that whilst 58 per cent is with Welsh firms, we actually think that only 23 per cent is food and drink of Welsh origin, so I know there’s more that we can do and the challenge is how we’re able to do that successfully and progressively. There is lots of evidence within local authorities and the health service on what is possible to do to make sure you’re genuinely taking advantage of food production locally. Our challenge is how we get more people to take up the opportunity to do so, and actually, to be fair, this is one of those areas we’re again in conversation on between different parts of Government. The education Minister’s team have recognised there is opportunity around the roll-out of free school meals to do more in this space to make sure that the investment we’re making in the lives of children will also lead to a return in a way that firms we have in Wales and food production actually see a material benefit as well.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister.

4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: The Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 has been withdrawn.

5. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: PISA Results 2022

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: So, item 5 is a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on the Programme for International Student Assessment results for 2022. I call on the Minister, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The PISA results for 2022 are published today, and these are not the results that we would have liked to have seen. While the results are disappointing, the crucial thing is to understand what they tell us, so I believe it is important to look at the wider context in which PISA was reported.
As Members will know, these tests were conducted in 2022 when the effects of the pandemic were still being felt, and COVID was still severely disrupting education. Wales is not alone in this situation; COVID has affected the performance of countries across the world. Since 2018, average performance in Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries has decreased by 10 points in reading and almost 15 points in mathematics. Germany, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway and Poland all saw a drop of at least 25 points in mathematics. To provide some broad context, Wales has achieved similar results to Norway and the United States for mathematics. And for science, Wales is again similar to Norway, whilst in reading, we are similar to France and the Netherlands.
Closer to home, every country in the UK has seen a decline in performance. However, the OECD are clear that we need to exercise some caution in making comparisons with England and Scotland, due to what they describe as 'upward bias'. The OECD estimates that their results could be overstated by seven to nine points. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, having said that, I want to be clear that I recognise that Wales is behind the curve.
In 2018, before the pandemic, we had started to see strong improvement in literacy and numeracy standards, thanks to the hard work of our teaching workforce. We were the only country in the UK to improve in all three PISA domains. COVID has had an impact on this improvement. As education Minister, I’ve raised time and time again my concerns regarding the long-term impact of the pandemic. In terms of behaviour, attendance, and engagement with learning, all of these have all been affected by the pandemic, and we are not alone in saying this: these concerns were also reflected in the national data we published recently.
Across the world, school absence is higher than it was before the pandemic. It is no wonder that attainment in literacy, numeracy and science has been impacted if too many pupils are missing school. In disadvantaged areas, we know that this problem is being exacerbated. There are often complex and multiple factors lying behind non-attendance. We have invested heavily to support schools, such as funding for more family engagement officers, but more support is needed.

Jeremy Miles AC: Our national attendance taskforce met yesterday and will meet again in January. This will help us to think creatively across the system to find solutions to issues that require influence and input beyond the education sector.
Dirprwy Lywydd, it's important to recall that our long-term education reforms have just started after years of planning, but, as the OECD point out, improvement in education unfortunately takes time. The analyses published today highlight the importance of resilient systems in supporting learning. The OECD describe these as systems that provide autonomy for school leaders to design a curriculum and an emphasis on self-evaluation, but with clear quality assurance and accountability mechanisms. Our Curriculum for Wales is such a system. It has now been introduced in all schools in Wales as of this year, though the learners who sat the PISA tests last year will not have had access to the new curriculum.
Our new curriculum and approach to education has been supported and encouraged by the OECD, reflecting their advice about how to make sure that an education system is fit for the future. They highlight the importance of resilience, equity, learning and well-being—all of which are central to our new curriculum. We've drawn on international evidence, in particular from the OECD, to ensure that our expectations align with what works. International evidence is clear that high-quality learning needs to be supported by professional learning and school improvement over time to support schools in a challenging climate for all professionals. This is what we will prioritise.
This PISA cycle has not, as I said, assessed learning under the Curriculum for Wales, however, the report will help us to strengthen support for schools and learners on the reform journey. Throughout this time, I have listened to and spoken with heads, with teachers and with unions, all of whom share my concerns regarding literacy and numeracy standards since the pandemic. These core skills must be an absolute national priority. And whilst the report today shows that the gap between our most and least disadvantaged learners is smaller than the OECD average, this sets our challenge as being about stretching our more able young people, as well as supporting all learners.
The Curriculum for Wales sets out a made-for-Wales evidence-based area of learning and experience for maths and numeracy. It also provides a framework for learners to develop their number skills throughout the curriculum. In realising the curriculum, we will support educators to develop approaches that support all learners to be confident in using and applying their maths and numeracy skills. Our oracy and reading toolkit provides a package of support to schools and practitioners to identify opportunities to achieve high standards of listening, speaking and reading. Our recent update to the toolkit reinforces my commitment to the systematic and consistent teaching of phonics, as set out in 'Our national mission: High standards and aspirations for all'.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we know that excellent teachers are the key to good education, and we will support our teachers to focus on teaching and create time for their own professional learning by continuing our work with unions and our other education partners to reduce workload. Driving up standards in reading, maths and science requires a system response from all education leaders in Wales. In January, I will bring all our partners together to develop a Wales-wide plan to ensure that we have a shared and comprehensive response to this challenge. Our education workforce do incredible work in supporting our pupils, but the reality is that over a decade of austerity continues to make their job harder. My focus remains on doing everything I can to protect front-line services, giving our teachers the tools they need to do the best job possible.
To conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, children may no longer be learning on a screen due to a positive COVID test, but the effects of the pandemic are still with us. The after-effects of the pandemic and rising poverty have placed our schools at the front line of a crisis beyond education. I cannot hide my disappointment with today's results, but they make me more determined than ever to get this right. We in Wales have large-scale reforms that have only just started to be rolled out. These reforms, with the renewed focus on literacy and numeracy, will be essential in supporting our pupils and schools, so that every learner, no matter their background, can reach their full potential.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister, and thank you to our workforce. I want to also reiterate that. This is by no means a reflection on them. You and your Government have failed education in Wales now for over two decades. Never has this been more apparent than when today's PISA results were published, Minister. Even your First Minister said that they were disappointing. Yes, they are.
Wales is the lowest scoring of any part of the United Kingdom and, very worryingly, has the steepest decline of all nations. Wales deserves better. Press reports highlight that Wales has registered the biggest drop in the three subjects between 2018 and 2022. For maths, Wales is 5 points behind Scotland, and 26 points behind England. For reading, Wales is 27 points behind Scotland and 30 points behind England. For science, Wales is 10 points behind Scotland and 30 points behind England. So, Minister, will you now take this opportunity to apologise to our Welsh learners and outline what steps you will finally be taking to address these calamitous failings?
Minister, it is unacceptable that Wales frequently lags behind the rest of the UK when it comes to educational outcomes, and recent PISA results this year show that this trend is set to continue—a trend that was in place before COVID. PISA results published in 2023 and showing data from 2022 showed that England, Scotland and Northern Ireland all had mean scores significantly higher than Wales. England's scores today still outperform Wales's all-time best in reading and maths since we entered PISA in 2006. Labour have been running education in Wales since 1997, and yet you still haven't even put us on a par with the rest of the UK nations. Yet, in your most recent statement today, you outlined a series of aims, which should have been implemented years ago.
You say in Wales we have a new curriculum. Well, if Scotland's new curriculum is anything to go by, with the poor results that they have achieved today, there doesn't seem to be an awful lot to look forward to, does there, Minister? You've had years to improve Welsh education. Instead, you've just failed another generation of Welsh learners. It is clear, Minister, from your written statement on 22 November, and your earlier statement today, that it was just a poor excuse to get your excuses in early.
However, these PISA results today speak for themselves. As Andrew R.T. Davies said earlier, Schleicher, the director from the OECD, said that the results gave policy makers in Wales food for thought about what to do differently, and I quote him:
'It's not just that Wales is the lowest performing region in the UK but it's also the one with the steepest decline',
and he goes on to say,
'Wales is more comparable to a country like Malta than top performing education systems.'
What a shame for our country.
The Welsh Government can try and peddle out as many excuses as they want today. You have tried to blame the pandemic for these results, even though everyone was affected by COVID. Minister, do you accept that these are Welsh Labour failings, and will you accept responsibility for them? Once again, we have heard a 'Not me, guv' response to these PISA results from you and the First Minister today. Year on year, we have seen Wales languish at the bottom of the PISA table, yet you and your Government saw fit to cut the education budget in real terms. This has clearly had an impact on Welsh results. And don't forget: Wales gets more money per head per pupil than in England.
Instead of focusing on the real priorities of our education system in Wales, you are still focusing on the wrong things, like school holidays, whilst Welsh education is rife with soaring absenteeism, dangerously low teacher recruitment and retention, and your Government is failing to deal with significant increases in ALN and the demands on schools. It all paints a picture of long-term failure by a Government and a Minister asleep at the wheel and failing to wake up before it's too late.
You can blame COVID all you like, Minister. However, these results stem from over two decades of poor choices and systematic failures by this Welsh Labour Government. So long as this Welsh Government continue to be either unwilling or incapable of addressing these fundamental issues, learners in Wales will be held back whilst their peers across the UK race ahead. The gap is widening. Minister, do you accept that your Government's priorities have been wrong for far too long, and if not, why we do we still see Wales lagging behind the rest of the UK with this recent set of results?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to the Member for those observations. I do think that results like this require a thoughtful response. Learners in Wales are entitled to that. The Member's questions included many, many misrepresentations and factual inaccuracies, which I'm not going to respond to individually; I think we've had the debate plenty of times previously. Let me just put the point in this way, if I may. I think my statement acknowledged the challenges that we faced in a very transparent way. What the statement attempts to do is set out the reasons why we think the results are as they are, and they are twofold. One is a set of challenges that are common to the vast majority of countries who participate in PISA, which are the effects of COVID, and the other is a set of challenges in our education system that this Government has acknowledged. And in collaboration with the OECD itself, the organisation that has reminded us, perfectly correctly, that there is food for thought in these results, we have been working on a series of significant reforms.
The message from the Member, customarily, whether she's on her feet or from a sedentary position, is that there is too much reform and that we should delay it. Actually, what we see, I think, is the need for us to continue with the significant reform to our system that we have developed together with the profession and other experts and that touches curriculum reform, school improvement reform, including the simplification of structures, a new approach to professional learning, bearing down on workload, a focus on the well-being of learners, a literacy plan, a numeracy plan, improvements to initial teacher education, reform of inspection, with clear lines of sight in relation to accountability. Each of those reflects the same values that the OECD tells us are at the heart of a self-improving education system fit for the future. Much of the reform I've just listed has been in development and gestation for many years, and much of it has only begun to be implemented in the last year or two, and so the effects of it are not yet being felt, in particular by the cohort of learners who have sat this year's PISA tests. That is our assessment of the situation.
The data from PISA today, as the First Minister said earlier, is disappointing, but not surprising. It reflects the data that I published a few weeks ago, which no-one was asking me to publish. I wanted to make sure that it informed the discussion and debate in this way. But what we will do in response to today's data, together with what we know from Estyn, together with the results from our personalised assessments, is see what more we must do, and I will do that together with our education sector in January, so that we have that Wales-wide response, building on that programme of reform that we've already outlined today.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for the statement and the comments. I do think you are right in saying that it's very important that we reflect on this and seriously consider the implications and the fact that they are the worst results since we joined in 2006. Of course, there are challenges posed by COVID—that is clear in terms of the situation more internationally. What I want to understand is why do you think that Wales has been more badly affected than any other nation because of COVID, given your emphasis on that point. And do you believe that we now need a specific inquiry into the impact of COVID in Wales on education specifically? That is happening in Scotland, looking more broadly, but they are focusing on education. If you do think that we have been the worst affected by COVID here in Wales, then I would want to understand why that's the case.
Another element that struck me in looking at this is that there were 437 fewer people in the education workforce between now and the previous results. Do you think there's a link between that and some of the challenges that we're facing in terms of the workforce here in Wales? I would also like to state my full support for the sector that works tirelessly. There is excellent work happening in our schools, but we must also acknowledge that teachers do constantly tell us about the major challenges that they face, the budgetary challenges now, and that we know that we will more than likely see schools lose teachers because of the challenges faced and the fact that they can't provide the kind of support that they would like to provide.
Can I also ask you how realistic in the context of—? You also referred to the cuts that have taken place over a decade and more. How much of a challenge is the current financial situation in terms of achieving progress, and how can we ensure—? You mentioned the prioritisation of front-line services, and so on. We’re talking about the future of children and young people at the moment, and I do think that there are many challenges facing us. We’ve heard from the children’s commissioner, and so on, about the impact of poverty on children—people not even being able to afford to get to school at the moment. So, in looking at the system that we have, and the changes that you’re implementing, if children and young people can’t even attend school, seeing that gap between those who are poorest within our society, then how will we see the progress that we all want to see in results such as these, if we also don’t have a child poverty strategy that has specific targets, so that we can make progress in this area?
I would also like to ask you as to how you see the various different developments—. You mentioned the taskforce on pupil attendance, and so on. Because obviously, we’ve often discussed the great concerns about pupil absence, and specifically the risks as local authorities make more changes in terms of school transport, and so on. What challenges will people face in actually getting to school after the next financial settlement? How are we going to be able to co-ordinate all of the changes that you’re implementing? Because I think that many of the education unions are right—we don’t want to see some sort of reaction to this that won’t have an effect on establishing a whole host of different taskforces; what we need to do is to draw all of it together.
What I would also like to ask is how we as Plaid Cymru can play our part, in order to look with you in terms of how we are going to ensure that our schools have the funding that they need to invest in the workforce, that we can ensure things like school transport, that we don’t continue to see a pattern where more and more children here in Wales are suffering as a result of poverty, and that that then means that at the end of the day results such as these aren’t just a reflection of some of the challenges within our schools, but that children and young people in Wales will be losing out. We do have to take this opportunity to truly consider the implications of this and what it also says about Wales to the world, and the standards here in Wales. It doesn’t reflect our workforce, but I do think that it’s a very sad reflection of the situation in terms of poverty in Wales at the moment, and how we must address poverty, and tackle child poverty, in order to tackle this major gulf in inequalities here in Wales.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Heledd Fychan for those very important questions. I don’t want to undermine some of the important points that she makes, but just in terms of correcting a few of the points, the results aren’t good, but these aren’t the worst results. That’s important to acknowledge, because it reflects the work that has been done over the years in our education system. And I’m not arguing that it's Wales that has suffered the greatest impact in terms of COVID; the First Minister explained earlier that a number of nations, and he listed many of them, had seen a far more significant decline in mathematics, in reading and in science than Wales, including a vast number of European nations. So, the picture is far more complex, I believe, than the Member suggested, with the greatest respect. I do think that the context is important, so that we understand what the data tell us.
The Member asked two or three very important questions. In terms of the workforce, I acknowledge the point that she makes that we need to support the workforce to be able to provide. What we know consistently from the discussions with the OECD, and others, is that excellent teaching is the best way to increase standards. So, we do know that we need to invest in professional learning—we’ve done that over the past few years. Over the past year, we’ve changed the system, so that there’s a new national right for educators. Of course, it takes time for people to familiarise themselves with that. We also need to ensure that there is space and time for professionals to be able to develop the curriculum, and to do what they do best, namely to be in the classroom teaching. So, that's one of the things that’s behind the work that we’ve been doing in terms of workload. There's more to do in that regard too. And that is consistent with the principle in the curriculum to trust the profession to do this work.
The budgetary point is very important. Just to correct the point that Laure Anne Jones made earlier, the schools budget hasn't been cut. So, even bearing in mind the cuts in the past financial year, we didn't cut schools budgets, for clear reasons.
The Member makes a very important point, I think, in terms of how important it is not to react to the results but that we look at them in that wider context. In terms of the developments that I have spoken about, which I listed in my previous response to Laura Anne Jones, there is a basis of general principles and consistent principles behind that response. I believe very strongly that they are pulling in the right direction, and the OECD has assisted us on that journey too. So, it isn't an element of a new list of reforms, but how we can refine what's happening already in the system, how we can acknowledge that the best way for learners to benefit from the richness of the new curriculum is to have a high level of literacy and numeracy, and that that's a core part of the school experience, of the curriculum experience, and how we can align those things. This is the kind of discussion that we need to have early on in the new year with other leaders in the education system, so that we can have a practical programme to respond to this, and not just responding to today's results, but responding to what Estyn has said, and what we, ourselves, have announced over the past few months, so that we look at the whole picture.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Clearly, it doesn't matter how brilliant the teaching is; if the child's not in school they're not going to be learning. So, clearly, that's one of the really big issues that we all face. We can't roll back the clock on what we did during COVID, where we kept kids off school in order to protect older generations, as children themselves were not, in the main, impacted on by COVID, but that redoubles our responsibility to enable them to catch up. We have to remember that education can't be about learning by rote, because the jobs that most of our pupils are going to be doing haven't yet been invented. It has to be about our ability to enable students to apply whatever they're learning to the unknown, because it's difficult to understand what are the challenges we are going to be facing in the future.
What I want to understand is how the OECD has helped us get the new curriculum right, bearing in mind that the children who are currently benefiting from the new curriculum, in years 7 and 8 in the school where I'm a governor—. Some of them will be sitting the PISA in three years' time, but not all of them. Therefore, we want to be really cautious about ensuring that the PISA is not the only thing that we're focusing on in ensuring that all our students get to the best of their ability in terms of shaping the education to suit their needs, rather than everybody having to sit in a straitjacket. So, I wondered if you can just give us some hope for the future, given that we can't actually see the granular detail at the moment of the PISA results.

Jeremy Miles AC: I just want to agree with the point that Jenny Rathbone made at the end. The information we get from PISA is very useful information, but it is not the only information that we have, and it is certainly not the only information that we need. Its utility is mainly as part of a broader suite of information, all of which creates that larger picture. But I also accept that if you choose to participate in a system then you want to do well in it. So, I'm not disputing that; I just think it's important that we see the larger context if you want to make the right decisions. And the answer to our challenges isn't making sure that we train individual pupils to do well in PISA; it's to make sure that the education system that we have in Wales reflects those principles.
She asked me to enumerate the ways in which the OECD are helping us with our curriculum. What they will say to you is that we need a curriculum that is resilient, which means a focus on progression, obviously, but also on high levels of equity, which we have, and also high levels of well-being as well. Those are all components that they describe as being features of successful education systems. I think those are the principles that this Chamber has voted for on many, many occasions and that underpin the new curriculum, which, as we all know, has only just been experienced in our schools. So, I think it's really important that we don't lose sight of that.
Just to say as well, I think it's important for us to remember that Scotland, who have introduced curriculum reforms, went quite some time before we introduced ours, so we have been able to benefit from some of the experience they've had and have learned from some of those challenges—around progression, around qualifications, around some of the mandatory elements in the curriculum—and we've been able to adjust our approaches as we've developed ours. That's the advantage, if you like, of going in the second wave in some of this.
I think the point she made at the start is really important, about the particular obligation that we have to this generation of young people. That's why we've been very committed to investing such significant sums to support young people through this and in responding to those challenges. One of the features that hasn't been particularly focused on in the debate is the very, very high level of non-engagement with the PISA tests themselves, of young people simply not wanting to participate in yet another cycle of exams and feeling, perhaps, the impact of COVID in that very real way. And I think that's a concern for the long term as well, but perhaps, again, not surprising given the experience that young people have been through.

Peter Fox AS: Minister, I think we all agree it's totally unacceptable that Wales languishes at the bottom of the PISA table. And I reiterate that this is no criticism today, our discussion, of our young people or our teachers. In my political career, I've seen PISA test after PISA test, and they don't seem to improve. You might get a slight blip upwards and then it drops down, but things are getting worse, and it's most clearly demonstrated in Wales at the moment. Sometimes in leadership you have to stand up and say, 'We've got something wrong here. There's something fundamentally wrong, which is disadvantaging Welsh children against other UK-based children.' And something there's nothing wrong with standing up and identifying that and finding interventions that will start changing that in the future.
I've heard time and time again through my political career about things like your Wales-wide plan. I've heard Ministers say, 'We're going to get it right', and nobody's ever managed to achieve it, hence my view that something is fundamentally wrong here. We saw the Government rushing through mammoth changes in education and diverting moneys and resources to things—along with Plaid—like universal free school meals. That money should have been invested in teaching and learning, and more should have been done in that regard. So, Minister, on behalf of parents—and I, as a grandparent of seven—I ask do you think your Government's direction has been correct over recent years? And whilst we heard the First Minister talking about various interventions this morning, he didn't explain too much about them. Could you give us some clear, tangible interventions that we will see that will turn the tide? [Interruption.] There's no point chuntering from the side wings, Alun, I'm asking a fair question here.

Jeremy Miles AC: I had a university lecturer who dedicated a book to a colleague by saying, 'To this person, for whom the opposite of speaking is not waiting but listening'. I've got to say, many of the questions the Member put to me I've answered specifically in my earlier question. He asked me to recognise whether there were changes needed; I've catalogued a long list of changes, many of which your party has opposed, and consistently you've said there is too much change, which needs to be delayed. I don't understand what your worldview is, whether reform is needed or not.
I've laid out today a very clear plan of what we want to do, and we—[Interruption.] And we will respond to all the evidence that we have in a way that is constructive and open. I've published information in the last few weeks that nobody was asking me to publish. I did that to inform and enrich a debate about our next steps. These questions are big questions. I've explained today that I think there are two things at play here: one is the effect of COVID; the other is changes that are needed in our education system and which we are introducing. But the truth is that they have just started to be felt in our schools, and what we will do, building on the work that we are doing in literacy and numeracy, is work with our partners to understand how we make sure that all of those are aligned so that we deliver the best outcomes for children in Wales.

Luke Fletcher AS: If I'm going to be totally honest here, I don't think PISA is the best way of assessing education within Wales. I think Jenny Rathbone made an important contribution as to why I think that. There are a number of other reasons as well. But I do think that this does provide us with an opportunity to look at the effects of the pandemic on educational attainment and, specifically, on how the pandemic amplified the effects of poverty on educational attainment as well. I think, for those of us who have visited schools and colleges since being elected, we've heard, consistently, anecdotal evidence from teachers and lecturers in colleges, specifically about that gap, which has become apparent as a result of the pandemic, in the ability of students.
Heledd Fychan mentioned the Scottish inquiry into the effects of the pandemic on education. Is this something that the Minister has considered for Wales? Because I think it's important we understand those effects, but also so that we can then mitigate against those effects, and to bring back, actually, a generation that I'm quite concerned about that is becoming a lost generation as a result of the pandemic.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I agree with the thrust of the point that Luke Fletcher made. I don't, myself, think we should describe them as a lost generation. I think they're a generation of young people who, as I think Jenny Rathbone was saying, particularly deserve our support, and I absolutely know that Luke Fletcher will agree with that view, obviously.
Throughout the time of COVID, the principle that the Government applied was that schools would be the last to close and the first to open, and that often complex question of balancing the harms of COVID infection on the one hand and what is self-evident—that if a child is out of school, their education is going to suffer, and that is clear. And it was a constant process of balancing one of those harms against another. But I think we can see, at least in 71 of the 81 countries, the effect that COVID has had on this generation of young people. And despite all the other policy disagreements that we will have in this Chamber, I think we will all unite around that principle.
I'm not seeking to say that COVID is the only factor at play here. I've sought today to also set out some of the facets of our education system, which we recognise needs change, and which we have a programme to change and to deliver. All information, such as the data today, is really useful to us in keeping a very close eye on that journey of reform, and it's really important, as a Government, as I hope we have been doing, that we listen to practitioners, when we hear from them, as you've just referred to in your question, but also data, as we hear from the OECD today, the personalised assessments in the last few weeks, and then take that into account in this evolving journey of reform. It's not overlaying another series and sequence of reforms, it's keeping a constant eye on the journey of reform that we are on, which the OECD is helping us with, and making adjustments where they are needed. So, the information that we have today, as the First Minister said earlier, and as I feel myself very strongly, is disappointing, but it is not in that sense surprising, and I look forward very much to the discussion in January when we can work together with education leaders to develop that consistent approach across Wales.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister. One point of clarity: you told Heledd Fychan, in your response to her, that this isn't the worst performance in terms of PISA result, although the BBC is reporting that, and the figures do suggest that, in terms of maths, reading and science. So, I would like to know—because, clearly, it's the headlines that many parents will see, I'd like you to explain, therefore, your response in that regard.
I think you're right in talking about the importance of the broader context of these results, and you mentioned a crisis beyond education that has had an impact here. But it's not just COVID. As Luke Fletcher mentioned, the impact of child poverty is particularly important, in terms of attendance figures, and this PISA report has revealed the number of teenage children who regularly go without food as a result of poverty is higher here than in very many other nations, and this is likely, of course, to have an impact on pupils' ability to learn effectively. So, what consideration has been given to investing more in terms of funding and support for schools to support learners? Are there sufficient resources available to support your guidance on attendance? Plaid Cymru was pleased to see the Unite union supporting our calls for the extension of free school meals to secondary school pupils—25,000 of them in poverty but don't qualify for free school meals at the moment. So, will the Government be willing to take a step that would help our learners to achieve better through that?

Jeremy Miles AC: In terms of the point of clarity, if you look at the results for mathematicsand reading this year as compared to the figures in 2012, for example, from the OECD's point of view—. The difference isn't statistically significant, as it were. It's within the expected range, if you will. So, that's the point that I was making earlier.
In terms of the question of the budget, I've outlined earlier how important it is for me to ensure that we do support our schools in the variety of ways that we are doing. Some of those things are within the co-operation agreement, and some of them, very many of them, outwith that agreement. That's the lens that I will bring as Minister to expenditure within my budget to ensure that we are doing everything we can to close that attainment gap between those students with the least and those with the most. The OECD have told us, in these figures, that that gap in Wales is less than in any other part of the UK, which is a positive thing, but certainly is no cause for comfort until we've succeeded in doing far more to ensure that the opportunities available to all pupils, regardless of their backgrounds, are equal.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you to the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Waiting Well: An update on progress

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item, therefore, will be the statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on waiting well: an update on progress. The Minister to make her statement—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. This year’s seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS was an opportunity to celebrate all that the NHS has achieved and also to take time to reflect on what the future holds. We know that people are living longer, that they will have increasingly complex health and social care needs, and this will place more demand on public services in the medium and longer term.
A review undertaken to understand these challenges over the next 10years, and debated in this Chamber, provided a detailed picture of future demands. It also gave an estimated increase in terms of the number of people who will be living with long-term conditions, and multimorbidity, bringing complexity and the need to take multiple types of medicine—polypharmacy. To build future NHS sustainability, we will continue to make the changes highlighted in the review and work closely with our population to support them in taking responsibility for managing their health and well-being.
Now, I've rehearsed on many occasions the work under way to implement our planned care recovery plan, issued in April 2022, and in particular to focus on the need to reduce our long waits for NHS treatment. But our focus can't solely be to increase capacity of services to deal with the ever-increasing demand. We must also seek to address that demand through preventative approaches and through supporting people to take control of their own physical and mental well-being. There's a real opportunity especially to encourage them to do this while they wait for NHS treatment.
In August this year I launched our national approach to supporting people while they wait for treatment on the NHS. The three 'P's: promoting healthy behaviour, preventing ill health while waiting, and preparing for effective treatment, designed to engage with patients so that they can be supported to identify and take the steps needed to maximise the impact of their clinical intervention.
Waiting for NHS treatment can be a valuable moment for patients to engage with the need to be proactive in relation to their health and well-being when they may be convinced, as evidence suggests, to make changes to their lifestyles before NHS treatments, whether that is stopping smoking prior to elective surgery, losing weight to increase the likelihood of better surgical outcomes, or reaping the benefits of gentle physical activity for the management of musculoskeletal pain.
We also know that levels of health and well-being can deteriorate during the waiting period, to the extent that when people are ready for treatment, they may often not be well enough or fit enough for the treatment to proceed or to achieve an optimum outcome.
But health information alone is rarely effective in motivating or enabling sustained behaviour change, whereas tailored communication, based on the characteristics unique to that person, has shown promise in effecting health-promoting behaviours and influencing health outcomes. I therefore want people who are waiting for NHS treatment to be provided with tailored health and well-being advice and signposted to additional sources of support. So, I'm pleased that Public Health Wales have worked with partners in the NHS system to develop a digital self-assessment tool, based on previous validated models of health checks, that will be integrated into pathways so that it can be accessed by those waiting for NHS care.
In each health board, individuals will be invited via text or letter to do the self-assessment. Referrals by phone have already begun. The self-assessment involves answering questions relating to weight, healthy eating, mental well-being, smoking status, alcohol use, physical activity, screening and vaccination status, as well as questions about individuals and the type of treatment they are waiting for. Once the questions have been answered, the health assessment provides tailored information and relevant signposting to sources of support to help individuals to take positive action.

Eluned Morgan AC: This public health tool will be one element of our improved offer for patients waiting for treatment. As previously announced, health boards are working to ensure that all of those on a waiting list for elective care will have a single point of contact. This single point of contact will be available for everyone by spring. As well as improving communications with individuals whilst they are on a waiting list, help will also be available to go through the assessment questions if they are not digitally enabled, or to provide up-to-date information about the local services available, for example, smoking cessation or to lose weight whilst they are waiting for treatment.
We already have examples of how tailored support to those on the waiting list can be beneficial. The waiting list support service at Hywel Dda University Health Board already provides patients with a single point of contact for advice over the phone or via e-mail. A recent evaluation of this service found that it increased patient satisfaction and reduced complaints through support and communication that was offered proactively; it provided a positive patient experience—people felt listened to and that they had not been forgotten—there was reduced risk of harm through clinically agreed escalation plans based on assessment of symptoms of patients awaiting treatment; and more people were able to access and take up self-management support and advice via online resources and programmes and health apps.
During COVID-19, Cardiff and Vale University Health Board sent out electronic nudging messages to over 3,000 individuals waiting for orthopaedic or general surgery treatment. The majority of patients who shared their feedback felt that these messages were useful and informative. And 40 per cent to 72 per cent of the people who received each nudge message said that they had changed their health-related behaviours as a result of these messages. Cardiff and Vale University Health Board also supported a dedicated service called 'Prepare well'. And this service provided both psychological and physical preparation for individuals waiting for planned orthopaedic surgery. This concentrated on improving patients’ physical health through a supported exercise programme. This had additional benefits such as helping with confidence, reducing anxiety and improving motivation. An independent evaluation found a cost value of just under £3 for every £1 spent on the service.
The 'NHS in 10+ years' report outlines what things we can do now to change some of the trends and impacts in the future. For those long-term conditions such as heart disease, cancer and diabetes, risk factors can be modified through individual lifestyle changes and public health interventions. So, it's clear that the projected trajectory of prevalence could be mitigated.
The digital self-assessment tool,together with the model of the three 'P's policy, makes an important step in this direction. I will be challenging all areas of health and social care to make every contact count and promote and integrate these opportunities into the whole patient pathway. Thank you, Llywydd.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Minister for her statement today? I think it’s right that we look at the future of our health services, and it was a good opportunity to do so, with the seventy-fifth anniversary of the health service. I think we can all agree that patients are supported, and should be supported, whilst they’re waiting for treatment.
You refer, Minister, in your statement to your planned care recovery plan, issued earlier in 2022. I think it’s right in the context of this statement today to also, of course, acknowledge that many of the targets set in that plan have, sadly, been missed, and there are more targets that are likely to be—further targets are likely to be missed as well, unfortunately. According to the latest health stats that we have, waiting times have hit another record high for those waiting for health treatment in Wales, and there are over 760,000 patient pathways, the highest on record.
I was just a little concerned about one element of the statement, Minister. I’ll come on to some good bits about it, but you mentioned that waiting for NHS treatment can be a valuable moment for patients to engage with the need to be proactive. I’m just a little concerned there with that wording, because it sounds like there’s obviously an opportunity here whilst people are waiting, and, of course, while people are waiting, they’re often waiting in pain, they can often deteriorate, and it also impacts how they can work, their anxiety, and often impacts other family members as well.
I am supportive, Minister, of this, the proactive, tailored approach—I think this is right, this is good—and often that single point of contact as well. I just wanted to understand—it sounds like they’re linked together, that there’s one single point of contact from each health board to provide a service in terms of giving that advice, for well-being advice, and also that single point of contact to the health board as well for more general enquiries. I think that’s what you were outlining in your statement today. The Minister’s nodding to that. So, I just want to understand a little bit more about that, because, if people are waiting a long time, their first question is going probably to be, ‘When am I going to get my treatment?’ So, yes, they want that advice, they want that well-being advice, but is that single point of contact also going to be able to give them advice on when their treatment, or provisional treatment, is coming, or how long that might be, or where they are on the waiting list? Can you give us a little bit more detail about that single point of contact having that degree of knowledge about their waiting time journey as well?
And just to understand as well, is that single point of contact—which I do welcome, because people are anxious and they don’t want to be put through on queuing systems and having different people to speak to; they want that confidence that they can speak to that one person—is that person, that single point of contact, is that for where a patient lives, the health board where they live, or is it where they’re receiving the treatment? Because of course there are some areas of Wales where people will be receiving treatment in a different health board to where they live. How does this work across the border? For example, most of my constituents go across the border for their treatment. Is it the local health board that will be providing that single point of contact in this regard, or would they not have that service because they’re receiving treatment elsewhere or over the border?
And I suppose the other question as well is in terms of the workforce that’s required to be that single point of contact. I think there are 0.75 million patient pathways currently open; that’s a lot of staff that are needed. Are these staff and the workforce going to be individual staff that are there just to keep patients updated, or are they pulled from other areas? Will those staff have other duties as well as keeping individual patients updated? And do we have the workforce? Does the Welsh NHS have the workforce to be able to achieve what you want to achieve, having that single point of contact? Will there be an unintended consequence there of pulling staff away, of course, from other elements of the NHS as well?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Russell. And you're quite right, I think, to focus in on this idea of a single point of contact, because the most frustrating thing as a patient, when you're waiting, is not to know who to call; you get thrown around from pillar to post. They want to know, 'What's going on? Where do I go for this information?' So, what I can tell you is that it is where the patient is on the waiting list, but it's linked to local services also, where they live. So, we're going to be developing some pathways here as well, so that GPs in future—. This will be a part of the pathway. So, as they are referred into secondary care, they will also be referred into this other route, which will be giving them tailored support, and they will be able to use that self-assessment tool as well.
I think they will be able to give more information because they will have access to the lists and what those lists look like, so they will be able to give that more tailored information. And what I can tell you is that I went to visit the operation of Hywel Dda over the summer and there was a huge team of people there fielding calls from individuals, and the very fact that we've had such positive feedback from that particular exercise, I think, is something that—it should be welcomed.
And just in terms of if you think about how many people—. We do have a lot of people on waiting lists at the moment. I think we mustn't waste this opportunity to interact with them, because a lot of these people will come back again in future because of that multi-morbidity thing that we're expecting to happen in future, the trajectories are telling us. And, actually, this is the time to engage with them on what that looks and feels like in terms of thinking about how they can eat better, cut down on smoking, do all of those other things.
I actually used the tool last night, because I wanted to go through the process just to see, right, 'What is this like? How tailored is it really?' And it did feel—you know, it took about 15 minutes to go through the whole thing, just to kind of set up. They ask you a series of questions— 'What's your age? What's your weight? What's this? What do you do? How often do you exercise?'—and then it points you, it takes all of that information and points you into a direction—[Interruption.]—because I think that is—. Yes, I had to make a few things up, because, obviously, I live such a healthy lifestyle. But it was quite useful to be able to see where they were directing you, what support was available locally.
And the feedback we've had so far is that people don't go to general information on the scale that we'd like them to, but they do like this tailored information that is unique to them. And I think that's very useful.
So, on the cross-border information, I would expect that Powys, obviously, they would have their own set-up that would link in to whatever's happening across the border, so there will be an operation, obviously, in Powys.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: With waiting lists at a record high in Wales, providing support for the thousands of patients currently waiting for treatment, especially as a means of pre-empting any potential deterioration in their condition, is crucial. But, while the aims of this programme are commendable, it's important we don't lose sight of the fundamental reality that, however effective the support mechanisms may be for people on waiting lists, it can never be a substitute for prompt treatment. Any delay in the provision of treatment risks exacerbating the physical and emotional distress for patients and their loved ones alike.
For example, last month, on World Arthritis Day, I was inundated with correspondence from people sharing their experience of the heavy toll caused by the physical and emotional pain that comes from living with this condition on a long-term basis. And this reflects a broader trend of waiting lists not only getting bigger, they're also becoming more persistent. The latest statistics show that there are currently over 51,000 patient pathways waiting over a year for their first out-patient appointment. There are also a combined total of nearly 15,000 patient pathways waiting over two years for trauma and orthopaedic treatments,urology treatments and general surgery.
When we talk about waiting well, therefore, what the 19 per cent of the Welsh population currently on waiting lists will most want to hear is the reassurance that it is predicated on an ambition to keep them waiting for as little as possible. But given the fact that the Government has consistently failed to meet its targets for eliminating one-year and two-year waiting lists, I do worry that some of their recent discourse on this matter is simply a tacit admission that long waiting lists will be here to say for the foreseeable future.
Waiting well cannot mean simply managing the status quo. It must be one part of an overarching and integrated strategy for clearing the backlog. A particularly troubling development has been the prevalence of patients seeking treatment via private channels, often at great personal expense, which in turn raises the prospect of a de facto two-tier system of healthcare emerging in Wales, and the entrenchment of existing class-based health inequalities.
Though the waiting well policy programme does contain an ambition to increase collaboration with third sector and public bodies, as an alternative to private sector involvement, when Plaid Cymru introduced an amendment to this end to the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill, it was voted down by the Government. The Minister also stated in evidence to the Health and Social Care Committee that she would not apologise for resorting to independent providers as a means of tackling the backlog. In recent weeks, we have heard the UK Labour health spokesperson claim that he would open the door wide open for private health providers entering the NHS. So, what assurance can the Minister therefore give that the Labour Party’s approach to dealing with waiting lists is more than simply leaving it to the private sector?
A key factor that led to the introduction of this policy was the revelation that there were 6,350 last-minute cancelled operations in Wales from April 2022 to March 2023, with the majority caused by the patient being unfit to undergo the procedure. Furthermore, one of the underpinning principles of the three Ps policy is the collection of data to learn, improve and ensure evidence-based services. Despite this, Wales is the only part of the UK that doesn’t currently routinely publish data on cancelled elective operations. Why is this the case, and will the Minister commit to rectifying this gap in the evidence base, so that we can gain a better understanding of how to make the organisation of elective operations more efficient?
Finally, as I have mentioned several times in the Senedd, the neglect of GP services in Wales is a glaring weakness in efforts to reduce waiting lists. We should be ensuring that as many people as possible can get diagnosed and treated by GP services locally before they have to join the long queues for hospital appointments.
The Deep End project, whose representatives I met recently, is currently undertaking vital work to facilitate the pooling of resources and best practice among GP services operating in the most deprived areas of Wales. I know that money is tight at the moment, but the £880,000 that the Deep End project needs to continue beyond March next year is a drop in the ocean compared to overall health spending by the Welsh Government. And since the first phase of the waiting well programme includes the goal of learning and sharing best practice, surely the Minister will appreciate how this could be a valuable investment in bolstering the resilience of our GP services. So, can the Minister therefore confirm whether further funding for the Deep End project is being considered as part of the health budget for the next financial year?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Well, what I can tell you, as you said in your opening statement, is that the best thing to do is to try and get these treatments done as quickly as possible, but as you have seen, the demand is absolutely immense and increasing, and is likely to increase as we have an ageing population, and we are going to see multiple morbidities at the same time. I think that, if we just say, 'Let's not deal with any of this', it's like—. It's the same thing in relation to the emergency departments, for example. One of the things that I did last year, and I am hoping to do a bit more of this year, is to improve the facilities in emergency departments, so that people waiting there have a better experience. Well, ideally, you don't want them to wait there at all, but I'm just accepting the fact that the chances are that we're not going to be able to fix this immediately, so I do think it's important for us to engage in this.
But it is also important for us to recognise that waiting well is not just about clearing the backlog; it's also about optimising the chance of that patient getting a better outcome. So, if you're fit going into an operation, you are more likely to recover quicker. So, it's a much broader approach than just saying, 'Look, we're just going to hold you off for a while'; it's not about that at all. It's about, 'Actually, can we use this time to engage with you in terms of lifestyle choices and see if this is an opportunity for you to perhaps think differently, and to avoid the possibility that you will become one of those people who have your operation cancelled because you're not ready for it, because you're not fit enough, or because you weigh too much for that particular operation to get a good outcome?' All of those things. I think we've got to just be careful about understanding that, actually, this is not about shifting the blame or the emphasis, it's about maximising the opportunity for the patient to have the best outcome.
So, what we know is that, for example, in relation to some of the musculoskeletal conditions, through undergoing some physical exercise, sometimes people feel, 'Right, I don't need that operation.' An operation is very invasive; it really affects your life for quite a long time, so if you can avoid it by engaging with that process—. Obviously, that's not appropriate under every circumstance at all, but there are some who have been removed from waiting lists as a result of that engagement.
We are certainly not trying to get the waiting lists down to the private sector. I have fortnightly meetings now with my team, looking at, 'Right, where are we on the waiting lists? How quickly can they come down? What's going on?' I can assure you that we are not depending on the private sector to help us with this. There will be some engagement and that will be a decision, obviously, for the health boards, but, at the moment, they're very, very curtailed in how much they can commission from the private sector anyway, because they don't have any money to commission it from the private sector. So, obviously, we need to maximise the work that we are paying consultants to do already in the health boards, where we're expecting to get the delivery of those waiting lists to come down.
So, in relation to the GPs and the Deep End project—I think it's a very good programme—obviously we are massively financially challenged at the moment and we'll have to look at if there is any possibility. But one of the things I particularly like about the GP Deep End programme is that it's come from them; this is an initiative that has come from the people working in those most challenged communities. So, if we can support them, then, obviously, we would like to do that, but we'll just have to look at the challenges in relation to everything else in the budget at these very difficult times.

Altaf Hussain AS: I wanted to make two points, really. One is: why should there be an unfit patient on the waiting list? We have to make him fit to be on the waiting list. It takes 20 years for a consultant to learn when to operate and 40 years when not to operate. So, it should be the fit patient who should be on the waiting list.
The next point I wanted to make was that the new introduction of the single point of contact is a distraction. We already have a contact: the GP and the treating consultant in the hospital. It is that contact that we should be maintaining and patients should have access to, otherwise this new introduction of a point of contact is going to fail and create more problems and red tape, and there'll be no accountability and there will be more litigation. Thank you very much.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Altaf. I'm always happy to bow to your superior knowledge in this field, but what I can tell you is that the evidence that we've gathered so far in relation to the people who've used this service find it to be extremely useful and they have a positive experience and they've engaged with it. So, although those other systems are available, people like this additional support that they have access to. We're trying to take the pressure off GPs and off consultants, so this is a mechanism to help to do that, but also to use this as a signposting method to be able to support people in order, as you say, to get them fit for the waiting list. I think it's very interesting when you say that it's not just about when you operate, it's about when you don't operate, and we need to make sure that patients understand the risks associated with operations as well, because it's not an obvious thing to do every time, and sometimes not operating, doing nothing, is the right thing to do. But it's not doing nothing entirely, it's about understanding that, actually, it's not about a clinical intervention, but it may be about a lifestyle adaptation that you need to take on.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: International Day of Disabled People

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next statement will be the statement by the Minister of Social Justice and Chief Whip on the International Day of Disabled People. Jane Hutt to make that statement.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Sunday was the United Nations' International Day of Disabled People, and here at the Senedd, we marked this day—diolch, Llywydd—by illuminating our building in purple, which is the colour adopted by the UK disabled people’s rights movement. Since its launch by the United Nations in 1992, 3 December has become a day when, right across the world, we celebrate the achievements of our disabled people and communities.
However, while we welcome achievements, we know that there's still so much more work to be done before we can say that disabled people have been liberated from the oppression that is imposed on them byanableist society. Through this systematic marginalisation, people with impairments are made disabled; thus 3 December also serves as a reminder for the need for us to work together to champion fundamental human rights, and the need for full liberation of disabled people.
The theme for this year is, 'United in action to rescue and achieve the sustainable development goals for, with and by disabled people'. The United Nations sustainable development goals set out an ambitious agenda for transforming the world for people, the planet and prosperity. We share this ambition in Wales, and we're committed to making our contribution to these goals. We are the only nation, so far, to have translated the UN sustainable development goals into law. It is unique to Wales and provides us with an opportunity to engage with like-minded Governments, regions and organisations globally and through networks.
Wales is different because sustainable development is the central organising principle that shapes what it does and how it works. This Welsh Government will make decisions in the interests of both current and future generations and draw on the talents of everyone to enable our nation to flourish.The Welsh Government is fully committed to marking this day to continue to highlight how many people in Wales are impacted by disability-based discrimination, and to stiffen our resolve to achieve full equity for all disabled people.
Yesterday, I was pleased to visit Disability Wales and the British Deaf Association at their new offices at Spark, which is part of Cardiff University. It was a thought-provoking visit, enabling me to meet staff from both organisations, who highlighted the ongoing need for a focus on dismantling the disabling barriers experienced by many disabled people across Wales.
It would be remiss of me not to mention the ongoing COVID inquiry, news of which is on our television screens every day. There's no question that disabled people were the most affected by the pandemic: six in every 10 UK COVID-related deaths were disabled people. However, many of these deaths were not the inevitable consequence of impairment, but were deeply rooted in socioeconomic factors and their resulting inequalities.
This realisation led to the commissioning and publishing of the groundbreaking ‘Locked Out’ report, and this report brought the stark inequity being faced by disabled people into sharp relief. This report also resulted in the creation of the disability rights taskforce, which I am proud to co-chair along with Professor Debbie Foster. Today, I'm not only reiterating that this Government recognises the discrimination and inequalities faced daily by disabled people, but that we're resolute in our determination to address them and are taking significant action to do so.
The Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru have a shared determination to strengthen the rights of disabled people and tackle the inequalities they continue to face. We're committed to the social model of disability. Together, through the co-operation agreement, we'll ensure the success of the disability rights taskforce.
Sometimes when governments create policies, plans or programmes, there is a difference between intention, what is delivered and what the people it’s intended to support really need. This implementation gap is something that needs to be tackled. The taskforce and its working groups are key to addressing this problem through placing the voices of disabled people at the heart of everything they do. The taskforce and its working groups bring together people with lived experience, Welsh Government policy leads and representative organisations to identify the issues and barriers that affect the lives of many disabled people. The taskforce is identifying the root causes of discrimination and resulting inequalities, and is identifying the short-, medium- and long-term actions needed to address those. The working groups have been considering a variety of issues and we regularly publish written statements to update on progress being made. Some of the groups have concluded and are presenting their recommendations to the main taskforce for consideration. We are seeing innovative and big ideas coming forward, which will have positive impacts on the lives of disabled people in Wales.
The Welsh Government’s disabled persons employment champions regularly attend the working groups and are providing mentorship to policy leads across the Welsh Government as well as engaging on cross-cutting issues to provide their expertise and valuable insights. The Welsh Government is and remains fully committed to ensuring disabled people are both fully and equally able to participate in Welsh life. However, we still have some way to go before we can state that Wales has been transformed into a society that no longer oppresses and marginalises nearly a quarter of its citizens. Having an opportunity to highlight this on the international day of disabled people is an important part of not only continuing the conversation, but shining a light on the change that needs to happen.
And finally, I would like to thank the disability equality forum, the taskforce and its working group members for their continued tenacity in not only shining that light on what needs to be changed, but in developing actions that will create the change. Because of the work they are doing, I am confident that next time we mark the United Nations international day of disabled people, the taskforce will have completed its work relating to the recommendations guiding our work to achieve our goal, namely the transformation of Wales into a disability-inclusive nation, where opportunities, equity and social justice are what dominates the lives of all our disabled citizens.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you for your statement, Minister. I would like to join you in stating how important International Day of Persons with Disabilities is and how important it is for us to work towards securing fundamental human rights for disabled people. It is a day to celebrate the achievements of disabled people around the world and promote the rights of people with disabilities. Disability does not have to be a barrier; just look at one of the greatest ever scientific minds, Stephen Hawking, who, despite being unable to speak due to ALS, was one of the best science communicators the world has seen.
Sadly, there are still too many barriers preventing disabled people reaching their full potential, despite the work of many of us here. I would like to pay tribute to my colleague and friend Mark Isherwood, who, as chair of the cross-party group on disabilities, has sought to address key disability equality issues, including implementation of the social model of disability and the right to independent living.
We must redouble our efforts to remove the barriers that society places in the way of disabled people and ensure inclusion for all. As the Minister rightly states, the theme of this year’s International Day of Persons with Disabilities is united in action to rescue and achieve the sustainable development goals for, with and by persons with disabilities—sustainable development goals such as no poverty, zero hunger and reduced inequalities, to name but a few.
Minister, how can we honestly say we are creating a more equal Wales when wheelchair users are denied bus transport because there’s no room for their wheelchair? How is it equal when, in 2023, disabled people have to book train travel ahead of time when the rest of us can just show up and get on board? What discussions have you had with the Deputy Minister for transport about making sure Transport for Wales is abiding by its equality duties and removing barriers from disabled passengers?
Minister, you state that it would be remiss of you not to mention the ongoing COVID inquiry. Do you think the inquiry is adequately taking into account disabled people in Wales? Do you agree with me that the only way to properly take account of the inequalities faced by disabled people during the pandemic would be to hold a full independent public inquiry in Wales? Minister, you mentioned the establishment of a disability rights taskforce; can you expand on the work the taskforce has undertaken to learn the lessons from the pandemic?
Finally, Minister, you state that the Welsh Government's disabled persons employment champions regularly attend working groups and are providing mentorship to policy leads across the Welsh Government. Can you expand upon how those working groups are improving the employment prospects for disabled people in Wales? How is this work complementing the Disability Confident employer scheme run by the UK Government?
Thank you once again for your statement, and I look forward to a day when disabled people in Wales face no barriers at all. Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain, and thank you for your recognition of the importance of International Day of Disabled People and for recognising the barriers faced by disabled people. I think it's pleasing that the whole of this Senedd does uphold and endorse the adoption of the social model of disability. I'm not sure whether, in fact, Mark Isherwood was a Member in 2002 when we first—. No. I was health and social services Minister at that time, when we first stated our support for the social model of disability, but I know that you, Mark, and your colleagues, have subsequently, as you came on board, supported this, and the cross-party group plays an important part in terms of bringing together partners and helping to influence policy.
It's also important that you recognise our unique position in terms of supporting the sustainable development goals, the key theme of this International Day of Disabled People, and, actually, to show that it is, as the theme outlines, united in action to rescue and achieve the sustainable development goals. I've said we're the only nation so far to translate the UN SD goals into law, but it does actually mean that it's at the heart of the way that we work. It actually reflects the tireless effort made by people across Wales, people with lived experience, to strengthen the ways in which Wales's future is shaped. I think it's important to recognise that this is also linked to our programme for government commitment to incorporate the UN convention on the rights of people with disabilities into Welsh law. That, of course, is ongoing work with our human rights advisory group. I think it is also important to recognise that we're the first Government to appoint an independent future generations commissioner, in fact, with our well-being of future generations Act providing that important framework for action, which does guide us in our work.
Many of your questions relate to the work of the disability rights taskforce. It's important to remember, as I said, that this was set up in 2021, following the 'Locked out: liberating disabled people's lives and rights in Wales beyond COVID-19' report. That report gave us the evidence and highlighted the inequalities and discrimination that many disabled people face in Wales, which were exacerbated by the pandemic. And it is that taskforce—and I've outlined its objectives and its membership—that is bringing together people with lived experience. Importantly, there are nine work streams, and you've referred to transport and travel as one of those. I have a travel working group. It's chaired by Andrea Gordon from Guide Dogs UK. It has held five meetings. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change attended the working group meeting to hear from members about how public transport issues affect the lives of disabled people, and the final meeting to agree recommendations is now being scheduled. But also, importantly, we have an employment and income working group. That work is included, and we'll be considering the recommendations at the next taskforce meeting in due course.
It is very important also that we recognise that we, again, in Wales have led the way in terms of appointing disabled employment champions. We appointed them and they're making a huge impact in the work that they're undertaking with disabled people. It links totally to the plan for employability and skills. This is very much a cross-Government response to underpinning the social model of disability in the employability and skills plan and in all the plans that address the barriers faced by disabled people. I think, also, importantly, not only are those disabled people's champions—a team of five is now recruited on a permanent basis—playing a key role, not just engaging with employers but trade unions to promote the recruitment and retention of disabled people, but also we're working with key stakeholders, including Business Wales and the Department for Work and Pensions, to improve the outcomes for disabled people. Our work continues to be informed by the disabled people's employment working group. I think importantly in terms of employment, in December 2021 we introduced a national milestone for the elimination of the gender, race and disability pay gap for 2050. That reflects our ambition and aspiration for economic and social justice.
So, our working groups are under way, responding to the disability rights taskforce's 'Locked out' report, giving us the evidence, and I'm very pleased to say that it is led by those with lived experience, alongside the key policy officials from across the Welsh Government, but also our Ministers, who attend all of those policy areas. I welcome the Welsh Conservatives' support for this work, but I have to say that I was extremely concerned about the benefit cuts in the autumn statement, which are particularly affecting disabled people.

Sioned Williams AS: One of the aims of the International Day of Disabled People is to consider how the dignity, rights and well-being of disabled people should be supported. Marking the day to raise awareness and promote inclusion in all aspects of life is still so important, decades since the launch of this day, because we still have decisions being made at all levels of Government that do not support the dignity, rights and well-being of disabled people in Wales, and that do not encourage or allow inclusion.
The five pillars of sustainable development underpin this year's theme of 'united in action to rescue and achieve the sustainable development goals for, with and by persons with disabilities', one of which is prosperity. Do you agree, Minister, that the prosperity of disabled people in Wales has been severely impacted by the Tory Westminster Government's recently announced measures to force people who are unable to work because of disabilities to seek work or lose their benefits? This is a shameful example of how disabled people can be stigmatised and demonised, and will push thousands who are already struggling to make ends meet further into poverty and hardship. So, how is the Government working to stand against the harmful and false narratives perpetuated by the Tory UK Government and right-wing press of the 'benefits scroungers' and bring an end to disability-related hate crime, which has seen an increase in the last years?
Plaid Cymru is proud of the commitment you've mentioned in our co-operation agreement with the Government to strengthen the rights of disabled people and to tackle the inequalities they face, but with the cost-of-living crisis currently hitting disabled people the hardest, we believe more work needs to be done by the Government to support them during this difficult time. Life is more expensive for disabled people and their families. They have to spend more on essential goods and services, like heating, specialist equipment, transport, specialist food and therapies. And the most recent snapshot of poverty report by the Bevan Foundation painted a stark picture of how disabled people disproportionately live in poverty and how the cost-of-living crisis is exacerbating this hardship. For example, more than four in 10 disabled people, whose condition limits them a lot, have gone without heating, and 46 per cent have skipped a meal. So, with the cost-of-living crisis continuing to impact on many disabled people, and the Tories in Westminster seemingly willing to drive many disabled people into deeper poverty, what consideration have you made, Minister, of the Welsh expert group's recommendation for the Welsh Government to introduce an instalment-based disabled-person cost-of-living payment for households with a disabled person?
And against this backdrop of the disgraceful way the Westminster Government has disregarded disabled people's rights and well-being in their recent announcements, the need to guarantee rights under law becomes even more important. Incorporating international standards, such as the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, can ensure a better awareness and understanding of those rights amongst politicians, and increases accountability where policy makers fail to respect, protect or fulfil disabled people's rights. So, what progress has the Welsh Government made on its commitment to full incorporation of the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people? You mentioned that that work was ongoing; I'd be grateful if you could expand on that, please.
There's also much in your statement about the need and value of co-production. You said of placing disabled people's voices at the heart of decision making. As chair of the cross-party group on learning disabilities, I've heard worrying evidence about how many day services are being closed or redesigned without proper consultation, despite the provisions of the social services and well-being Act. So, would the Welsh Government consider creating minimum consultation and co-production standards that local authorities have to follow to ensure people with a learning disability are able to better contribute to decisions that affect the services they receive? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. And thank you again for the engagement, particularly in the work of the disability rights taskforce, as I said, addressing nine work streams across the whole of Welsh Government, in terms of responsibility. But it is important also that some of our key partners are also engaged in the taskforce, not just local government. The third sector particularly is represented by disabled people and their member organisations.
I have to say that I have every sympathy with what you're saying about how we are going to progress with ensuring prosperity for all people, including disabled people, in Wales. And that links to how we tackle poverty, and you've mentioned the cost-of-living crisis and the impact we know that that's having on disabled people. I just want to refer briefly to what actually was said in the autumn statement about cuts to disabled people in the midst of the worst cost-of-living crisis in living memory, and disabled people are amongst the hardest hit. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has proposed changes to the benefits system that will have a devastating impact on hundreds of thousands of disabled people. Just to explain, the changes proposed to work capability assessments could see disabled people losing £4,680 per year, being threatened with the removal of key entitlements like legal aid, and also being forced into work. The claimants that are deemed fit for work, but who fail to take steps to find employment, could face mandatory work placements. And if they don't find employment or refuse work placements, they will not only lose their benefit, but will also be cut off from accessing other services.
Now, one of the things that we feel very strongly about is that sanctions are not the right way to support people into work, and the Work and Pensions Committee of MPs found there's no evidence that the DWP's benefit conditionality sanction system works, and instead states that it makes things worse, it is harmful and counterproductive. And actually it's counterproductive—it doesn't help support more disabled people into work, and more disabled people are likely to be pushed into deeper poverty and greater deterioration of health. So, yes, we very much subscribe to the ways in which we can support disabled people through the cost-of-living crisis, and as you know, we did engage with a group of experts to look at how we could support disabled people in the short and longer term in terms of their needs, and indeed, yes, there was a recommendation from the expert group in terms of a possibility of a short-term payment for a low-income household with a disabled person, but obviously, also as a result of the cuts to our block grant—the £900 million from this year and £1.3 billion next year—we haven't been able to make that funding available. But I would say it is the UK Government who should be responding to those needs, particularly those of disabled people.
But we also work as we do in terms of tackling poverty to maximise incomes, and that's where the funding that we put not only into the single advice fund, to help people through 'Claim what's yours', and that's crucial for disabled people, but also into the discretionary assistance fund, which we've managed to increase this financial year—to ensure that people, including disabled people, can access those, particularly those emergency payments.
Now, it is very important that we look to the work of the disability rights taskforce to help us on all these issues. We've got a very strong set of recommendations from the work stream on independent living and social care. That was chaired by Rhian Davies, the chief executive of Disability Wales. Julie Morgan, in fact, attended the final meeting to hear the recommendations and heard the point today about the importance of delivering the rights under the social services and well-being Act, where there is a commitment to co-production. I know that the Deputy Minister is engaging with her social care forum and people with learning disabilities, taking this forward.
We do believe that the incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, as it's described in the convention—the work that's been ongoing on that in order to take this forward is making great progress. What's good about that is that it's also—. The human rights advisory group, which I co-chair with the Counsel General, has got a sub-group on looking at the legislative options. We're going to hear more about that as we work too.
Later this week we will actually we celebrating Human Rights Day, on Thursday, and we will be reflecting on the progress that's been made in terms of the work to incorporate the rights of disabled people. But I do think the fact that we have got sustainable development as a core organising principle to our work as a Welsh Government, the fact that we've got our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 steering us and guiding us in terms of the way forward for policy making, providing a framework within which the public sector can make those improvements to the lives of people in Wales, will help us reach a more equal Wales, and, as I said, to tackle those issues that, for now, are the most pressing for disabled people in terms of the impact of the cost-of-living crisis.
But I do hope the Senedd will join with me to address this and to challenge the UK Government in terms of these benefitcuts to disabled people, which haven't actually really hit the public consciousness yet; it certainly has in terms of the adverse impact it's going to have on disabled people.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, I'm very grateful for your statement and for your personal passion and drive on this agenda. I know that from the determination with which you pursued the appointment of the disabled people's employment champions; they're hugely important in Wales. Today is a very important day in Wales and around the world in promoting the rights and dignity of people who face disabling barriers every single day.
Minister, I've just got two questions. First of all, would you agree that it's vitally important that, wherever and whenever possible, we adopt the social model of disability, as has already been raised by Altaf Hussain, and that the onus is on every single one of us to adopt that model and to do what we can to tear down the daily barriers that people face? And, secondly, the point has been raised by Sioned Williams, but would you agree that years of UK Government austerity have impacted disproportionately on those people who face daily disabling barriers? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Ken Skates. Can I just thank Ken Skates, in his former role as Minister for Economy and Transport, for taking forward that very ambitious programme to appoint our disabled people's champions? And I recall at the time, we made a very clear call for those champions to be disabled people, because we knew that disabled people's employment champions need to be people with lived experience, who actually could go out and influence employers. I think the work that they're doing has been very significant in terms of their impact on employers and the outcomes of it for disabled people.
In terms of the milestone I mentioned on the elimination of a gender, race and disability pay gap, this is where our links to the employability and skills plans are key, but also that we recognise that they're influencing the disabled people's employment work stream of the disability rights taskforce, providing advice and guidance on emerging issues and also priorities for disabled people. And it is crucial that we do embed the social model of disability in everything that we do. That's the main work stream of the disability rights taskforce. It's called the embedding and understanding the social model of disability working group. It's chaired by Professor Debbie Foster, and as a result of the work undertaken, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, Care Inspectorate Wales—they've had bespoke training in the social model of disability and they are applying this knowledge to inspections of health and social care services. That's just one example of the influence. But all of the members of the disability rights taskforce had training, not only in the social model of disability but also in co-production, because co-production is crucial, actually, to ensure that we have the outcomes that we want to achieve.
I do, secondly, accept completely—and I think I've identified our recognition—that 13 years of austerity has resulted in the appalling socioeconomic impacts on disabled people, and also, I have to say, the so-called welfare reform. And I've outlined the latest assault on disabled people by the UK Government, in terms of these benefit changes that they're bringing in, which will be totally counter-productive, as I responded to Sioned Williams, in terms of the use of sanctions, forcing people to work, and totally against the social model of disability. And it is also an indication of ways in which Governments can actually disable people through their policies and procedures. So, yes, thank you, Ken Skates, for your support for the statement and your clear support for the International Day of Disabled People.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. Minister, the International Day of Persons with Disabilities is a day to celebrate the achievements of disabled people around the world, as well as to keep pushing for those rights for those with disabilities.
There are, unfortunately, a whole myriad of issues that we could talk about today, but I want to talk to you about something positive, and that is Wellies Farm within my region. It's a fantastic example of best practice, specifically designed for those with additional learning needs in a post-16 education setting. Those lucky enough to access Wellies have highlighted how literally life-saving the farm has been for their children. However, despite their efforts, Wellies Farm has noted on several occasions they don't have the access to funding or support that they desperately need to provide more post-16 support and opportunities in education. It is vital that we look into expanding post-16 education in this form. As Wellies say, 'Not all classrooms have four walls', and the experiences that are offered to young people are clearly invaluable and visibly effective.
The young people with ALN and disabilities are in an environment at Wellieswhere they can achieve and thrive, and the knock-on effect on their families is positive too. I'd love to see more places like Wellies across our region and Wales, as currently local councils are paying large sums of money for young people to go across the border to England to experience the same things, which is not sustainable or desirable. Minister, firstly, can I extend an invitation to you to visit Wellies Farm in Newport to see the results for yourself, and secondly ask how you're working with the education Minister to expand post-16 educational opportunities for disabled young people and those with ALN to prepare them for the world of work, and to ensure that in Wales financial support remains with them as they move at their own pace into adulthood, and that the support is there for them and their families on a needs-based approach, as you say, not just brutally stopping at 16 or 18?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Laura Anne Jones. I'm very interested to hear about the work and the initiative of the farm in Newport. I actually have an Amelia Trust care farm in my constituency, which probably does very similar pioneering work. And it is important that we look at all ways in which we can support disabled children and young people. I'm glad that the children and young people's working group, which is co-chaired by Alice Moore and Angharad Price—. They've held two meetings. They are focused at present on children's mental health services. They're very clearly engaged with children and young people as well, looking at the initiatives and the priorities that they have, but I'm sure that they will want to look at this in terms of the learning opportunities, particularly relating to additional learning needs.
I'm minded to reflect that last week I was giving evidence and you were in the Children, Young People and Education Committee, chaired by Jayne Bryant, looking at the needs of disabled children and young people, and recognising that there has to be a range of services to support them.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Given some of the references made, I'll just note that the cross-party group on disability meeting on Thursday afternoon at 3.30 p.m., which is our annual general meeting, will also include a presentation by the Department for Work and Pensions, if you wish to raise any points with them.
But, Minister, you state that the Welsh Government is resolute in its determination to address the discrimination and inequalities faced daily by disabled people. That's something you've been saying for over two decades. In November last year, 16 years after the Changing Places campaign was first debated here, I led a debate on Changing Places toilets, stating that
'a lack of basic facilities such as these are leaving people disabled, trapped, isolated and dependent on others.'
What action have you taken on this since?
The National Deaf Children's Society Cymru has warned that falling numbers of teachers of the deaf and other issues with the roll-out of the Welsh Government's additional learning needs reforms is hindering deaf pupils from making use of educational training facilities. They actually have a Senedd petition on this. What action are you taking on that matter?
Disability Wales is extremely concerned about the financial pressures being experienced by disabled people's organisations across Wales, run and controlled by disabled people and acting as their voice in their communities, including Flintshire-based Flintshire Disability Forum Centre for Independent Living, with scrapped local authority funding generating far higher cost pressures on local authorities, creating a false economy. What action are you taking about this?
Finally, what action—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mark, you've had two questions and you've gone over your time, so can you be very quick in your 'finally', please?

Mark Isherwood AC: Yes. Well, finally, what action have you taken regarding the recurrent concern raised with me by disabled and autistic people and their families in Flintshire that there is, in their words, an evident pattern of blame and bullying when a parent raises legitimate concerns, which I've repeatedly highlighted here, where the recent STAND North Wales Flintshire parent support group meeting emphasised the continuing need for disability and additional learning needs training to be more than just awareness, for parents to have their voices heard, and for legislation to be adhered to.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, and I've appeared before and worked with the cross-party group, and I wish them well for the AGM that you chair later on this week.
You've mentioned key issues facing disabled people, and, as you know, I chair a disability equality forum that predates our disability rights taskforce, and, of course, that includes disabled people, key stakeholders, who advise us on key issues affecting disabled people. And in fact on Monday I visited the Disability Wales new offices in Spark, as I mentioned in my statement, and I had discussions with them. They were particularly keen on the incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities into Welsh law. But I also met with the British Deaf Association and discussed then the work in progress in terms of the British Sign Language charter as well.
I think it is very important that we recognise that our role, my role as portfolio Minister for equality, is to ensure that we remove barriers facing disabled people, and that means removing barriers that prevent them being able to participate in every aspect of life—the hurdles and blockages that are often created by structures, policies and people’s attitudes. But I think—I hope—Mark, that you would also join us in recognising that we’re 13 years—. And I hope it’s nearly the end of austerity—13 years of austerity has undermined our ability to respond to many of the challenges that disabled people face. And not only 13 years of austerity—a Chancellor’s statement that brought nothing, no funding at all, for public services, and therefore facing another great hole in our budget, and, on top of that, a benefit cut that will disable more people. So, I’m very glad that the Department for Work and Pensions are coming to your cross-party group, and I hope there’ll be some challenge there to their latest plans.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister. Before we move on,

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: the leader of the opposition earlier this afternoon raised a point of order regarding a question during First Minister's questions. Upon reviewing the transcript and the written question submitted by the leader of the opposition on 23 November this year, I find that the Member for Mid and West Wales had not been out of order in reflecting upon one of those questions in her contribution. The leader of the opposition has also now taken the opportunity to point Members and the public to the second question on the same topic, submitted on the same day.

8. The Representation of the People (Electoral Registers Publication Date) (Wales) Regulations 2023

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 8, the Representation of the People (Electoral Registers Publication Date) (Wales) Regulations 2023. I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8430 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Representation of the People (Electoral Registers Publication Date) (Wales) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 14 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. The arrangements for the administration of our elections are important in order to ensure the smooth running of those elections. Much of the administration is governed by legislation, which includes the date for the publication of the electoral registers, which must be published on 1 December each year. The regulations we are debating today would allow electoral registration officers to publish the 2024 electoral registers up to two months later, until 1 February 2025. This change only applies to the publication of the 2024 electoral registers.
The extra time provided for in these regulations is necessary so that the electoral registration officers are able to complete an additional registration confirmation and review process in 2024. This review process is a consequence of the UK Elections Act 2022 and associated regulations, which require a review of the eligibility of EU citizens to vote in police and crime commissioner elections. To be clear, while the regulations give more time for the publication of the local government register, this exercise will not impact on electoral registration for Welsh elections at all.
Responsibility for the local government registers in Wales is a devolved matter. We have worked closely with the UK Government and the electoral community in Wales, and these regulations will ensure electoral registration officers in Wales can do their important work in good time. I’d like to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their work to consider and report on these regulations.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have no other speakers on this item. The proposal is therefore to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. The Regulated Services (Special School Residential Services) (Wales) Regulations 2023

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 9 is the Regulated Services (Special School Residential Services) (Wales) Regulations 2023, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services to move the motion—Julie Morgan.

Motion NDM8433 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Regulated Services (Special School Residential Services) (Wales) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 7 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you. I move the motion.

Julie Morgan AC: The Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 provides the statutory framework for the regulation and inspection of social care services in Wales. The regulations before you today, the Regulated Services (Special School Residential Services) (Wales) Regulations, exercise the power within the Act to prescribe other services comprising the provision of care and support as a regulated service. These regulations bring residential special schools into the scope of regulation under the Act by defining a new service, a special school residential service. These regulations respond directly to the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse recommendation that residential special schools should be inspected against the quality standards used to regulate care homes in Wales. They will contribute to establishing a more consistent approach to the regulatory oversight of services caring for vulnerable children.
I'm also laying the Regulated Services (Registration) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations on 8 December. These regulations amend existing regulations to include the new service. They are being made under the negative procedure. I will be bringing forward regulations early next year to complete the regulatory framework. I commend the regulations to Members.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Alun Davies to speak on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Alun Davies AC: I'm very grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I speak this afternoon on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. We considered these draft regulations on 20 November and subsequently considered the Government's response at our meeting last week. Our report and the Welsh Government response are available from today's order paper.
Our report contains just the single technical reporting point, that I will briefly summarise for Members. Regulation 2(3) provides for a definition of the word ‘hospital’ and refers to three different terms that are defined in other legislation. Unlike other definitions in regulation 2(3), no reference is made to the sections of the other legislation that the three terms can be found in. For example, ‘health service hospital’ is defined as having the meaning given to it in the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006, but it does not refer to the specific section that gives the meaning. We consider that this is not helpful, as the reader is then required to review large pieces of legislation to find the meanings of relevant terms.
Standing Order 21.2(v) enables us to report on matters that, for any particular reason, we consider that the form or meaning of a statutory instrument needs further explanation. We therefore requested an explanation from the Welsh Government as to why a consistent approach had not been taken to defining terms in the relevant regulation.
Deputy Presiding Officer, in response the Welsh Government acknowledged that it would be of assistance to the reader if signposting of references to provisions in other Acts was done as accurately as possible, and it agreed that reference to the specific section numbers would have provided greater assistance.
Finally, and perhaps interestingly, the Welsh Government also chose to question whether our query, and I quote,
‘properly falls within the ambit of Standing Order 21.2(v).’
The Welsh Government is welcome to provide us with fuller details of its concerns. I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And I call on the Deputy Minister to reply to the debate.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Alun Davies for his contribution to the debate. And I think that the points that he's made have been considered by the Welsh Government. These regulations do create a new regulated service, the special school residential service, and this responds to the recommendations of the inquiry and brings residential special schools into the scope of the regulation under the 2016 Act. I acknowledge that the points that Alun Davies makes would be of assistance to the reader, but I urge Members to approve these regulations.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. The Register of Service Providers (Prescribed Information and Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2023

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 10 today is the Register of Service Providers(Prescribed Information and Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2023. I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services to move the motion. Julie Morgan.

Motion NDM8432 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Register of Service Providers (Prescribed Information and Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 7 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion.

Julie Morgan AC: The Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 provides a statutory framework for the regulation and inspection of social care services. One of the aims of the Act is to provide greater transparency of regulated services in Wales. To support this aim, the Act requires Care Inspectorate Wales to maintain and publish a register of service providers that informs their online public-facing directory.
Currently, service telephone numbers are only included on the register with the provider’s consent. This has led to gaps in the information included on the register. We wish to close this gap by ensuring that the public have easy access to the contact details of regulated services. These regulations therefore mandate the inclusion of service telephone numbers and e-mail addresses on the register. This will provide people with a choice about how to contact services and will ensure greater accessibility.
The regulations that apply to service providers will come into force on 31 December 2023. CIW will be required to publish the additional information from 30 September 2024 onwards. This change will ensure that there is greater consistency in the information published on the register of service providers. I commend them to Members.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have no other speakers. Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. The Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 (Consequential Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2023

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 11 is the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 (Consequential Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2023. I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales to move the motion. Lesley Griffiths.

Motion NDM8431 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 (Consequential Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 7 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion to approve the statutory instrument for the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 (Consequential Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2023. This is a technical statutory instrument with no policy implications. The instrument lists necessary amendments to existing law made by the Senedd or the Welsh Ministers as a consequence of section 5 of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023.
Section 5 of the Act establishes assimilated law as a new body of law in place of retained EU law, and sets out what retained EU law and related terms will be known as after the end of 2023. The instrument’s purpose is solely to update the Welsh statute book and ensure that it works coherently and effectively.
These regulations make amendments to primary and subordinate legislation that apply in relation to Wales, in consequence of the renaming of retained EU law and related terms as assimilated law and related terms after the end of 2023. The powers being exercised to make these regulations are those conferred on Welsh Ministers by sections 19(1) and 20(1)(b) of the retained EU law Act, which received Royal Assent on 29 June 2023.
The Act makes significant changes to the domestic body of law previously known as retained EU law, and facilitates the amendment, restatement or revocation and replacement of retained EU law. It also contains a regulation-making power to make consequential amendments that can, among other things, be used to amend legislation to update references to retained EU law or related terminology arising from the Act’s changes. This power is held concurrently between Ministers of the Crown and Welsh Ministers.
The Senedd twice voted to withhold legislative consent for the retained EU law Bill—on 28 March and again 6 June 2023. We intend to use the powers conferred by the retained EU law Act judiciously and only where absolutely necessary, such as when making technical amendments, as proposed in this motion.
The Welsh Government acknowledges its responsibilities to ensure that the Act is properly implemented where necessary, to ensure the integrity, consistency and accuracy of the Welsh statute book. We lay the motion for these amendments in the spirit of that responsibility. In this instance, we, as the Welsh Ministers, have agreed that consequential amendments to legislation made in Wales should be made by the Welsh Ministers. These regulations have therefore been brought forward to bring about such consequential amendments.

Adam Price AC: As the Trefnydd has said, this is mainly a technical motion, but, of course, as the Minister's comments have confirmed, there is a broader framework and a broader context to all of this. We in Plaid Cymru also oppose the principle underpinning the original Westminster Act, which does provide very broad powers to scrap law that is in devolved areas.
Now, there were some saving powers, as I understand, which have been revoked. That is, there was a means to retain pieces of legislation that is no longer available, since the end of October. The Minister has referred to the joint power, the need to work jointly, which provides some safeguard in this area. Was there an assessment undertaken—? Rather, how was the assessment undertaken of these changes and the ability to use the saving powers before the end of October?
Now, there has been a positive change, to a certain extent, in terms of the Windsor framework, but as far as the relationship with the devolved assemblies and parliaments goes, there is still a very negative context, and the Counsel General, in his letter to the committee, referred to the lack of consultation that has taken place in relation to the retained EU law Act. So, can the Trefnydd inform us as to the process that the Government will use in order to safeguard the settlement that we have in relation to this legislation?
Also, can you provide us with any information as to the resources that have had to be used just in introducing these technical changes? We understand that there are ongoing capacity issues that are having an impact on the Government's legislative programme. So, how many resources had to go into these technical changes, and how has that impacted on the broader legislative needs faced by the Government at the moment?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The Minister to reply to the debate.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to Adam Price for his comments and questions. I think it is fair to say, you know, these are technical amendments and there are no policy changes. It's a very unusual situation, because we do, obviously, disagree with the fundamental intent of the Act.
I don't have the figures to hand around the resources that have been used, but we do all of this through the inter-ministerial process, and you referred to the Windsor framework as well. I think it's just really important that we look at this on a case-by-case basis and approach and I certainly have no issues around the capacity. So, we bring forward our own legislation, as I say, on a case-by-case basis, so I do therefore ask Members to approve the regulations today.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the two motions under items 12 and 13 will be grouped for debate, but with separate votes. I see that there are no objections.

12. & 13. The general principles of the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill and the financial resolution in respect of the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NDM8427 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that Senedd Cymru in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:
Agrees to the general principles of the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill.

Motion NDM8426 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that Senedd Cymru, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

Motions moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motions.

Julie James AC: I'm pleased to be here today to open this debate on the general principles of the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill and to move the motion and the financial resolution. The Bill introduces a modern and simplified regime for the consenting of significant infrastructure projects in Wales, both on the land and in the territorial sea. I am committed to having an efficient and effective consenting regime that makes a positive contribution towards our social, economic and environmental prosperity and net-zero ambitions.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to start by thanking the Finance Committee, the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their thorough scrutiny of this Bill. I appreciate all of the hard work that has gone into delivering their comprehensive and helpful reports within a tight timescale.I would also like to thank all of the stakeholders, communities and individuals who have contributed, supported and taken an active role in developing this vital legislation. I also welcome the additional oral and written evidence provided by organisations and individuals during the scrutiny stage. The combined expertise, challenge and perspective has been and continues to be invaluable to the development of this Bill.
I found the committee reports reassuring, in that there is clearly a consensus that the Bill is much-needed legislation and provides a necessary step in the right direction towards our zero-carbon target. Dirprwy Lywydd, given the number of and detailed nature of the recommendations, it will not be possible to respond to each and every one of them today. Therefore, I will write to the committee Chairs individually with my full response following this debate. But you will be pleased to hear that I will be accepting the majority of the recommendations. I will concentrate today on what I see as the principal topics and issues raised by each of the committees.
So, turning to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, I'm pleased to accept recommendation 1 from the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee—that's quite a mouthful, isn't it, Chair? [Laughter.] This is that the Senedd supports the general principles of the Bill. I acknowledge the range of recommendations in the committee's report on subordinate legislation and the regulation-making powers within the Bill, and I understand the importance of engaging with stakeholders early in the legislative process and in an inclusive and meaningful way. I'm happy to accept recommendations 2, 4, 5 and 6, dealing with subordinate legislation matters.
Public consultation will be carried out on the proposed contents of subordinate legislation. The result of this consultation will help inform the final form and content of subordinate legislation being taken forward. I want stakeholders to be involved in setting the provisions to ensure that they are workable in practice. I am, however, reluctant to consult on draft subordinate legislation, as there is a danger that some may perceive that we've already set our proposals in stone. Our experience in this is that this may lead to less meaningful engagement, and I want to avoid this misinterpretation. But, should it be required, I'm happy to undertake targeted consultation on specific aspects of drafting.
I note the recommendations set by the committee that deal with projects included in the regime, and I confirm where a project category has not been included as part of the Bill, the evidence we have collected to date suggests there is uncertainty over what the threshold should be for a project of national significance. However, I will bring forward amendments where appropriate.
The flexibility included in the Bill is very important. Technology is advancing rapidly, and I am aware of the need to futureproof this new regime. I note the concerns raised around hydrogen in particular and my officials are continuing the engagement with stakeholders on this and other means to store energy. Hydrogen use is captured by the Bill either as a means to generate energy or as an energy carrier associated with a different type of energy generation. The Bill at present does not contain a specific threshold for hydrogen production because, to date, we do not have enough evidence to understand what that threshold should be. Following a review of evidence, I am considering bringing forward amendments to the Bill that include pipelines, subject to the limitations imposed on Wales by the Government of Wales Act 2006. As part of our ongoing work, we will continue to engage with stakeholders on this matter.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I also accept we need to make sure that everyone is clear on the details of this Bill. So, turning to recommendations 12 and 14 on consultation and publicity processes, the committee has indicated the need for the Bill to provide clearer positions on consultation standards. I'm happy to accept these recommendations in principle. I can reassure Members that I have always acknowledged the importance of engaging and consulting with as wide a range of stakeholders as possible. We will produce guidance specifically for prospective developers on best practice when undertaking consultation and engagement with communities and other stakeholders.
The statements of policy intent that accompany the Bill set out in detail the minimum requirements for consultation and engagement that would likely be included in subordinate legislation. I intend these statements as a starting point for wider public consultation. The final subordinate legislation will be informed by representations received from those stakeholders. This approach applies a minimum requirement for all proposed developments captured by the Bill. This provides certainty and clarity to stakeholders and local communities on what they can expect as part of the consultation and engagement exercise.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Julie James AC: I note that recommendation 12 suggests that the Planning Act 2008 should be used as a starting point. However, my proposed approach goes beyond what is prescribed as part of the consenting process in the Planning Act. The Planning Act sets no minimum standards required to be met by prospective developers, and, therefore, offers little certainty and consistency from one application to another. I am keen to ensure that communities are satisfied with the consultation standards. This is why I've also asked Planning Aid Wales to look into this matter.
As I've confirmed during the scrutiny sessions, I'm happy to consider any specific recommendations on what consultation requirements should be included as a minimum standard, or, indeed, as best practice. Recommendation 26 requested an update on discussions with consultees, local planning authorities and other stakeholders about how full cost recovery will be achieved. Dirprwy Lywydd—. Oh, Llywydd, excuse me—[Laughter.] You swapped seamlessly there. I've been clear from the outset that I'm committed to full cost recovery arising from the legislation set out in this Bill. I've listened to evidence from all parties, and discussions with stakeholders have been ongoing throughout the development of the Bill and during Stage 1 of the Senedd scrutiny.
Current fees for infrastructure applications are based on what is prescribed in regulations. Some operate on a full cost-recovery basis, whilst others do not. To enable full cost recovery, I anticipate the new regime will allow for fixed-rate and variable fees for all types of infrastructure applications. The specific charges will be subject to further work and consultation as part of the wider programme of subordinate legislation I mentioned earlier. Llywydd, I welcome any views that stakeholders or Senedd Members may have on this issue.
Whilst I've been unable to respond in detail to each of the recommendations proposed by the committee, I will write to the Chair in due course on all the recommendations to provide further clarification on our proposed way forward.
Turning now to the recommendations made by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, I note that they have requested a response prior to this debate and, unfortunately, Llywydd, this was not possible. I will provide comprehensive answers to the issues raised by the committee in writing shortly.
Turning to some of the points raised by the committee, I've accepted the majority of recommendations they have made, but I want to make an important and fundamental point first. I wish to reiterate my position that we have achieved the right balance between the level of content on the face of the Bill and that to be set out in subordinate legislation and guidance. It is my intention that the procedural and administrative processes of the regime will be contained in subordinate legislation. There are various reasons why details will be contained in subordinate legislation. Our experience of existing regimes has shaped this approach to that subordinate legislation. The planning system, including the development of national significance regime, has a similar balance between primary and subordinate legislation. Therefore, there is a strong precedent for this approach.
Leaving details to subordinate legislation allows for flexibility, and this makes it easier for users of the system to have one place to go to for all administrative matters. These matters of detail, such as the contents of an application form or who will be consulted on an application and what that response will consist of, are not appropriate for inclusion on the face of the Bill. I do accept that where the committee has suggested further detail is added to the face of the Bill you have also suggested a corresponding Henry VIII power to make amendments to that detail. I do not myself consider this approach creates accessible law, as any reader of the legislation would first need to confirm that no amendments had been made, and these amendments may be lost in multiple pieces of subordinate legislation.
To reiterate, though, I have looked favourably on the majority of recommendations the committee has made. For example, there are a number of recommendations on the use of the affirmative procedure, and I will look to respond positively to these. I will also provides amendments to set out the principles relating to the power of entry on the face of the Bill.
Finally, Llywydd, turning to the Finance Committee recommendations, I am pleased the committee was broadly content with the financial implications of the Bill. I have accepted recommendations 1, 4, 5 and 6, as well as accepting recommendation 2 in part, which seeks further clarification on the costs and benefits of the Bill. I responded in writing to the committee last week to provide further information and clarification as requested.
I have not been able to cover all recommendations in the respective committees' reports, rather I've tried to respond to what I considered to be the main points. I believe the written responses I have already supplied and will supply following this debate will cover all the areas of interest. Llywydd, I look forward to addressing further questions later in this debate. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Chair of the climate change committee first. Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd.At the beginning, I wouldlike to thank Mark Southgate, who acted as expert adviser to the committee on this Bill. His advice and his insights were invaluable, truth be told, to the committee in conducting its work.I’d also like to thank those who gave evidence to us to help inform our consideration of the Bill.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: As we've heard from the Minister, the primary objective of the infrastructure Bill is to bring clarity and efficiency to the infrastructure planning process while enhancing community engagement. However, our analysis, which has been supported by contributions from various stakeholders, suggests that the Bill in its current form may fall short of meeting these goals.
As a committee, we have made—as you heard in the Minister’s opening remarks—30 recommendations on ways to improve the Bill and the new regime. It is disappointing that the Minister has not been able to provide a written response in advance of this debate, but I am grateful for her commitment to publish a written response as soon as possible. The irony is, of course, that the more problematic a Bill is, the more likely we are to see large numbers of recommendations emanating from committees, which will make it more difficult for the Welsh Government to respond to in advance of the debate on the general principles. I would ask that the process of arranging Stage 1 debates is something that the Business Committee may wish to consider further because of that situation. I don’t feel that it is acceptable that we are expected to vote before we receive a written response to the recommendations from two committees, but that’s hopefully something that the Business Committee may wish to consider for the future.
So, today, I will focus on four aspects of our scrutiny: the balance of provisions in primary and secondary legislation; community consultation; costs and resources; and then finally, transitional arrangements. So, in terms of this balance of provisions, as is set out in our report, the committee was concerned about the fact that the Bill is overreliant on secondary legislation. Although we accept the Minister’s argument, of course, that this is a process Bill, there is nevertheless a balance to be struck in relation to the details on the face of the Bill and the details then included in secondary legislation.
The framework nature of the Bill does create a situation where vital details of how the new regime will operate in practice are deferred to future regulations. Of course, the Government prefers framework Bills, and as far as I’m aware, the civil service prefers framework Bills, and they’ll make the decisions that count further down the line, perhaps also away from the glare of scrutiny. The message that we receive is, ‘Well, you’ll have to trust us, it’ll all be okay'. That’s what they tell us.
But with an overwhelming number of powers—59 of them—delegated to Welsh Ministers for regulation making, there is a serious risk of losing clarity and transparency. The Minister has argued that this approach offers the Welsh Government flexibility. However, it does also sacrifice the much-needed certainty and clarity for those people who will be affected by this provisions. This approach not only undermines the Senedd’s capacity to conduct thorough scrutiny, but it also casts a shadow of doubt on how effectively the Bill will deliver on its policy intentions. The anticipated one-stop-shop approach that the Minister has heralded, for example, remains nebulous without these critical details.
Stakeholders repeatedly drew comparisons with the 2008 Planning Act—and the Minister referred to that legislation—and the stakeholders said that it includes much more detail on the face of that legislation. In their view, a better balance was struck in the UK Bill. To counteract the ambiguity arising from reliance on secondary legislation, we have recommended amendments incorporating more detailed provisions directly into the Bill, and in our view, this will enhance clarity and allow for more effective scrutiny. We’ve also recommended that up-to-date versions of all subordinate legislation, the guidance and associated documents should be made available in one place, to ensure that developers, the public and public authorities all have a clear understanding of the latest positions.
The ambiguity in the Bill extends to community consultation processes, which is the second element I wanted to talk about. The Bill promotes improved community engagement, but does so in a manner that leaves too much to be defined later on. While section 30 promises enhanced engagement, the actual mechanisms for this are left to secondary legislation, and this ambiguity frustrates genuine public involvement and hinders transparency.
Given the Bill's emphasis on community engagement, it is critical to have clear, detailed provisions for public consultation, and this includes specifying who needs to be consulted, the consultation methods deployed, the timelines and the reporting requirements. We have included recommendations on these issues in our report.
Another area of concern is a lack of resources and specialist skills, especially with regard to local planning authorities and public authorities. While the Minister's commitment to full cost recovery is commendable, stakeholders told us that there is a need to address the existing resource constraints that may hinder the effective implementation of the new regime. We must ensure that local authorities are not only theoretically empowered, but that they are also practically equipped to handle the demands of this new system. We have, therefore, urged the Minister to provide mechanisms for shared learning and resource allocation amongst local authorities. This will ensure the effective delivery of the new regime across different geographical areas.
Stakeholders, particularly developers and local planning authorities, were concerned about the transitional arrangements between the current and future regimes. The explanatory memorandum notes that there is an expectation that the new regime is fully operational by mid 2025, yet the specifics of how we transition to this new system remain unclear. Stakeholders emphasised the need for detailed and transparent transitional plans, and it’s imperative for the Minister to not only engage in ongoing discussions with stakeholders and local planning authorities, but also to publish a clear, indicative timetable outlining the steps and timelines for these transition periods. This transparency is essential, not just for the smooth implementation of the new regime, but also to instil confidence and clarity amongst all parties involved.
To conclude, therefore, Llywydd, while the committee agrees with the general principles of the Bill, it requires significant amendments if it is to serve its purpose. If the Senedd agrees the general principles today, our goal should then be to refine the Bill so that it is a tool that not only meets the Minister’s objectives, but is also effective, transparent and inclusive. We must ensure that this Bill becomes a workable and effective cornerstone of our planning process, with our communities, of course, at the centre of that process. Thank you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Alun Davies to speak on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer, and I'm pleased to contribute this afternoon on behalf of the LJC committee. I'd like to start, if I could, by thanking the Minister for her appearance before our committee in September, and also for her readiness to respond to a large number of queries we had via correspondence. We are grateful to you for that, Minister.
Our report on the Bill contains 50 recommendations. The number reflects the extensive number of delegated powers in the Bill and our concerns with some of those powers. I would also make the point, and reflect on the point that's just been made by the Chair of the climate change committee, that we had a message sent to us that the Minister would not be formally replying to our report before today's debate, as had been requested. I do note that the Minister has given an undertaking to provide a written response as soon as possible. The Minister has also reflected on some elements of the committee's report in her contribution opening this debate this afternoon. It is difficult for committees, and I think it does the work of the committees and the clerking teams of committees a great disservice, if the Government seeks to timetable a Stage 1 debate on legislation without providing committees and Members with a full response to the recommendations of committees. It might be something, Llywydd, that you wish to consider when reflecting on the timing of these debates.
I will not seek, Members will be very pleased to hear, to cover all 50 recommendations this afternoon, 34 of which are suggesting specific amendments to the Bill. I will seek, however, to highlight some of the themes that emerged during our scrutiny. The Minister, in front of the committee, referred to the Bill as a 'headline Bill', as opposed to the normal terminology of 'framework Bill'. However, whatever the descriptor chosen by the Minister, it is clear that the Bill contains more than 80 delegated powers. Nearly 20 per cent of these powers are Henry VIII powers, enabling the Bill, if and when enacted, to be changed by the Executive. We have concerns that five of the 14 Henry VIII powers in the Bill could be exercised by the Welsh Government without the Senedd having any knowledge that the law that it has approved has been modified. The substantial delegated powers contained within the Bill have the potential to cut across the Minister's aim for a one-stop approach. We do not consider that the Bill as drafted constrains the Executive power as fully as it should.
The Minister was very clear in her opening remarks that she feels the balance is correct between the detail that is covered on the face of the Bill and which is needed in secondary legislation. It is clear that that is her position. We recognise that reasoning and we recognise the power of her argument, that it may not be appropriate to set out administrative matters on the face of the Bill. However, we are not persuaded that a person with a relevant interest could read the Bill and fully understand the processes involved in a significant infrastructure project. We accept that having a great deal of detailed information on the face of any Bill could make any piece of primary legislation unwieldy. We fully accept that and we've accepted it in a number of reports over the years. However, that has to be balanced against people having a broad understanding of what is expected of them by any new law. I'm afraid to say, Minister, we are not persuaded that the balance is right within this Bill.
We believe further detail could be added to the Bill without hindering its readability, particularly where the Minister has taken delegated powers through the Bill to place as yet unconfirmed requirements or functions on unknown persons. This need for further detail is also relevant to provisions in the Bill about powers of entry. Should the Senedd approve the Bill, it will represent a significant delegation of power from the legislature to the Executive. We have recommended that the Minister should provide a clear and detailed list of each and all delegated powers in the Bill, by reference to the specific location, type and scrutiny procedure. We have also recommended that the Minister should review the Bill and put on its face information that is already known, for example requirements on people, and who those people are, so that there is a better balance between what the Senedd is being asked to approve and what will be left to subordinate legislation. I will state clearly that the committee continues to be content to have further conversations with the Minister on these matters as the Bill proceeds through its Senedd processes.
There are several delegated powers in the Bill that the Minister has included for reasons of flexibility and futureproofing. Futureproofing is a justification, of course, which is often put forward by Welsh Ministers, and the committee has commented on futureproofing in the past. We do not consider it appropriate to use the Bill as a vehicle to avoid a future Bill, where the use of primary legislation would be the constitutionally appropriate mechanism and means. In our view, including many regulation-making powers to futureproof a Bill takes away powers from future Seneddau and is not an acceptable practice. These powers will rest with the Executive, with Ministers, with a Government that is as of now unelected for the future. These are enduring powers. They are not one-off powers we're being asked to delegate to this Minister and this Government.
In closing, Llywydd, I would draw Members' attention to our report and the specific recommendations we have made about the amendments we consider are needed to the Bill in order for it to make better law and a law that gives this Senedd the role that it was elected to deliver.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate. I'd like to thank the Minister and her officials for appearing before the committee and, unlike the Chairs of the other committees that have reported this afternoon, for providing a response to our recommendations prior to today's debate.
We came to one conclusion and made six recommendations. I am pleased that the Minister has accepted three of the recommendations in full, but I am disappointed with her response to the other three that were either rejected or agreed in part.
Before I turn to specific issues relating to the Bill, I want to note that this is the first time that a methodology paper has been prepared alongside a regulatory impact assessment. And we found the paper very helpful. As a committee, we've long advocated that the Welsh Government should 'show its workings', as Mike Hedges so regularly informs us, when it comes to producing cost estimates. Therefore, we recommend that the Welsh Government should consider including such details, which are used to inform the cost estimates for each Bill, within the RIA, rather than as separate documents, as a matter of principle. It's encouraging that the Minister has accepted this recommendation in principle, although I am disappointed that this method won't be adopted for all Bills in future.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Now on to the specific aspects of the Bill. It's disappointing that the costs that could be incurred by communities as a result of this Bill were not estimated in the RIA. Whilst the streamlining of the new consenting regime should lead to a reduction in costs for participants, we know that there will be a cost to communities in terms of their time and efforts for participating in these processes. We accept that estimates will vary, depending on the nature of responses and participation, but we feel more work could have been undertaken to clarify how these benefits will materialise. To this end, we recommended that the Minister undertakes further modelling work to identify the costs and benefits for communities, and provides further information on community involvement, how that currently works, who is involved, and how it might change as a result of the Bill. It's therefore disappointing that the Minister was unable to accept the first part of this recommendation, which we felt was a modest request, which would have improved the information accompanying this Bill.
The committee is pleased that there will be total net savings of £2.2 million over the five-year appraisal period, compared to the current system. The RIA also claims that the Bill will result in benefits that are not possible to quantify financially. We reiterate our view that any claims of significant benefits arising from a Bill should always be backed up by robust costings. We therefore recommend that the Minister undertakes further work in regard to the financial benefits arising from streamlined consenting processes. Once again, it's disappointing that the Minister has not accepted this particular recommendation.
We heard from the Minister that the new regime provided by this legislation will operate on the basis of full cost recovery. The committee is keen to understand how this will work and how it compares to the current system, particularly in terms of the impact on developers. We therefore recommended that the Minister provides further information on how fees will differ under the new regime, compared to the current one, and the impacts this will have on relevant stakeholders.
For significant infrastructure projects, the Bill proposes a tier of optional thresholds and criteria below the compulsory levels. We accept that optional thresholds provide flexibility, however it would be useful to fully understand how the process associated with the optional thresholds might work in practice. We have recommended that the Minister provides this information, including whether this flexibility could lead to some variability in the efficiencies outlined in the RIA.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Llywydd, our final recommendation relates to the post-implementation review. I've spoken in this Chamber on a number of occasions about the importance of such reviews to ensure that the objectives of legislation are being delivered in line with expectations, and that value for money has been achieved. Given that this Bill is about streamlining a process, capturing such information is even more important. We therefore recommend that the post-implementation review assesses the overall costs and benefits of the new consenting regime and whether this meets the expectations as set out in the RIA. Thank you very much.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: In welcoming this Bill, I certainly welcome the three aims at the core of this legislation, but clearly there's been some concerning comments made from the Chairs here present. It will, hopefully, succeed in delivering a streamlined and unified process, enabling developers to access a one-stop shop for permissions, consents, licences and other requirements. It sounds very easy, that, doesn't it? It should also allow communities to better understand and engage in decisions that affect them and be sufficiently flexible to meet future challenges. Who could disagree with that?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Now, the Royal Town Planning Institute highlighted to us that they had long called for a regulatory framework to enable an effective infrastructure consenting regime on large projects, but throughout the committee stages, and indeed for several months now, several concerns have been raised in terms of the resourcing of this Bill, the shortage of planning officers and the shortage of legal officers in our local authorities. Wales & West Utilities said that the existing developments of national significance process was simply not fit for purpose. Isle of Anglesey County Council considered the current process to be lengthy and inefficient.
Now, when considering that our current infrastructure approval process is putting Wales at a disadvantage to other parts of the UK, the case for change is therefore unquestionable. It is disappointing, though, that it's taken over five years from the original consultation in July 2018 to reach this point today, and a lot has happened in those five years, but as they say, better late than never. Nonetheless, most contributors and the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, in recommendation 1, do support the general principles of the Bill, as do I. The Welsh Conservatives will be voting in favour today. However, that's where we need to be quite clear that this Bill has to change as it develops. As it stands, this legislation requires a wide range of changes to address numerous fundamental problems. For me, these fall into nine categories.
Transitional arrangements: Steve Ball, Cardiff Council, expressed concerns about the absence of detailed information on the transition period. In fact, I also agreed with the National Infrastructure Planning Association that there needs to be a clear cut-off point and criteria for determining how projects would transition between regimes. As we have made clear in recommendation 6, the Welsh Government should publish an indicative timetable setting out when the transitional arrangements to the new regime will be determined. This should be included in the Bill, not, as you have previously suggested, to be included in the regulations.
This brings me to the second category: over-reliance on secondary legislation. In complete conflict with the core aims of the Bill to deliver a streamlined and unified process, and empowering communities to better understand and engage, the Bill actually has 35 instances where detailed provisions would be included in regulations. That is excessive, and has been described by Bute Energy as one of the Bill's key failings. That is no surprise when considering that there are a total of 59 powers in the Bill for Welsh Ministers to make regulations. To make matters worse, there isn't even a timescale for making such subordinate legislation, nor guarantee of consultation with stakeholders. So, I agree with all the asks in recommendations 2, 3, 4 and 5.
Timescales is the third major reason why I'm concerned about this legislation in its current form. The Bill is currently a step backwards from the Planning Act 2008, which specifies time limits. I agree with recommendations 12, 14, 23 and 25, and suggestions by stakeholders such as Statkraft, Associated British Ports and NIPA that there should be timescales for specific parts of the decision-making process.
We then have the matter of community involvement. Kelvin MacDonald went so far as stating that he did not find any section whatsoever that would explicitly make community involvement more accessible. The Senedd is being asked by the Minister to have faith that a better system will be delivered through regulations, and that, for me, is a fundamental problem. We've had an abysmal situation in terms of consultation in regard to the Awel y Môr windfarm, and constituents of all of us, where big, significant projects are concerned, have the right to be fully consulted on these issues, and they just haven't been.
We then have the fifth area of concern, that Senedd oversight is set to be undermined. For example, policy statements will take precedence over national plans, but the Bill makes no provision for those statements to be scrutinised whatsoever and/or approved by this Senedd.
We also have the major conflict around biodiversity. On one hand, Minister, you tell us there are no policy gaps in the NDF or marine plan, however, we have heard opposite views—and a number of significant opposite views—from other stakeholders. This Senedd has previously backed our legislative proposal to create a national marine development plan for Wales, with full spatial inclusivity, as one would do on terrestrial land. We still need that. Similarly, there is an urgent need to consider the three other areas of concern that have been identified by stakeholders, namely the definition of 'significant', the pre-application process, and resources.
Of course I welcome that the Bill is estimated to produce a net saving of £2.2 million over the five years, but concerns have been raised about the burden on local planning authorities, and the figure, actually—how that can be arrived at. There is considerably more than could be said—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I'm going to have to ask you to draw to a conclusion now.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes. We will be voting in favour today, but we do expect to make significant changes, if possible, along the way. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to add my thanks, as the Chair said, to Mark Southgate, our witnesses, and also to the committee team and Chair for their expertise. Thank you, Minister, for this opportunity to discuss the general principles of the Infrastructure Bill. Today, I would like to focus on some central themes, including capacity and empowering communities.
First, we must identify, I think, whether planning authorities have the capacity to take part in the new regime being introduced here. Perhaps I should have said at the beginning that there are a number of things in this Bill that I agree with. I think that there is the potential for something revolutionary and it is to be welcomed, so I am supportive of this legislation. I should have said that at the outset, but I have a number of points that I would like to make and a number of areas where I would like to see the Bill being improved and amended.
In terms of capacity, the Minister has emphasised the importance of transparent and consistent processes, and she is right to do so, in my view. I’m eager to know what measures will be introduced to support local authorities to adapt their work to align with the new system. I'd like to know whether additional resources will be provided to them to ensure that they can work effectively.
And turning to public consultation and engagement, the Minister has drawn attention to the need for communities to have a better understanding of, and engagement with, the planning decisions that affect them. This principle is to be welcomed, but we must look at specific issues to understand whether this Bill will do enough to improve that situation. I’d like to know what mechanisms will be put in place to ensure that engagement and participation improve, because there is the potential here for something very important to happen. I’d also like to understand whether any plans are in the pipeline to engage with the public and with community groups. How will the Government ensure that local voices will be heard, and not just heard, but that we ensure that these local voices and views carry greater weight in decision-making processes? Very often, there is a feeling amongst communities that their views don't count enough or that they're an afterthought. I'd like to see this Bill improve that situation.
Further to this, I’d like us to be discussing the need to strengthen policy statements, such as 'Future Wales', to provide better advice to developers. So, Minister, when you respond—. You have spoken about the need to give certainty to those making decisions, about the need for clear policies, and that is, of course, very important. But concerns have been expressed in some committee evidence sessions regarding the priority given to policy statements over national schemes. I would like to know how the Government intends to refine these policy statements to provide strong and robust advice to developers, to ensure that projects are aligned with sustainability principles and net-zero targets.
And finally, Llywydd, a subject that is of exceptional importance: we must have assurances on how this legislation will balance the need for major infrastructure development with the need to safeguard our environment and nature. We have a duty, all of us, to ensure that we do not compromise on our efforts to protect the ecosystems that keep us alive. I'd welcome an opportunity to hear more about what is in this Bill to safeguard our environment, or what more could be included in the Bill, particularly in the context of the nature and climate emergencies. Will major infrastructure projects be expected to contribute to beneficial outcomes in terms of biodiversity—that is, to give a further uplift to any compensation due?
So, this Bill does give us an opportunity to do several things, provided we take those opportunities. We must keep communities, sustainability, the natural world and engagement at the heart of this legislation, but I look forward first of all to hearing the Minister’s responses to these initial questions—I know that a number of these issues have been addressed already in committee—but I also look forward to the opportunities to propose amendments to the legislation, because there's a really important opportunity here, I think. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: First of all, Presiding Officer, I need to declare that my partner is an adviser to Bute Energy.
The climate emergency requires us to make prompt decisions about these important matters, and the DNS process is simply not delivering the renewable energy we need at the pace with which we need it. We are blessed with lots of wind, water, land and seas, all of which gives us huge opportunities to generate energy, and every day we delay is a further day spent using fossil fuels and also condemning our poorer households to having to use far too expensive energy. So, we really do need to have a framework in which we can provide clarity and appropriate speed at which we provide a clear, strategic policy framework on which decisions need to be made.
Developers will not invest the millions of pounds involved in preparing these applications unless they have some idea of the clarity about the process, and that came across very, very clearly in the initial stakeholder event I attended, which was organised by Planning Environment Decisions Wales—PCAC or PEDW, depending on which language you speak—and also Royal Town Planning Institute Cymru. So, that was really clear. They are simply going to go elsewhere if they can't get that clarity, and we need to have a really businesslike approach to this. Otherwise, why on earth would they invest millions in providing an application unless they can see that it will be dealt with fairly, consistently and in a timely fashion? Ambiguity is likely to make developers more reluctant to invest here.
I was, once again, like my colleagues on the committee, very pleased to get the advice of our expert adviser, Mark Southgate, because he was somebody who had front-line experience of being an examiner in England, and also for his clarity about some of the virtues of the Planning Act 2008, which is the framework that's being used in England. I don't think we should reinvent the wheel; if we've got good legislation next-door, then there's a good reason for adopting it, particularly as the cross-border issues will require us to collaborate in any case where we have cross-border issues with Wales and England.
One of the recommendations that the Minister has accepted is the need to have all the updates to the Bill, secondary legislation and regulations all in one place. It seems to me that's really important for consultees or members of the public who, in five or 10 years' time, will still need to know what is the latest regulations that I will have to deal with when I want to have my say on this or that application. In any case, since COVID, all of the parties involved in any DNS applications no longer use bits of paper to pursue or critique applications—everything is done online, which improves traceability as well as timeliness. So, that, I think, is a really important way of ensuring that the publicknows how to make their views known in considering any infrastructure proposal that they think involves them.
Full cost recovery is a really important principle, but, in exchange, developers will expect an efficient and timely response to their submissions. So, we need to ensure that planning authorities, which at the moment complain about being underfunded, but don’t appear to be collaborating sufficiently—. You don’t need to have a world expert in every single coastal authority that is a real marine energy expert. What they need to do is to be seen to be jointly sharing the cost of a top-quality expert who can be called upon as and when. Also, in answer to the question of who is going to provide advice to people, I’m pleased that the Minister agrees that it should be regional teams, rather than a team in the Welsh Government, particularly as in many of the cases it will be the Welsh Government making the decisions, which, therefore, certainly would undermine the independence of regional experts.
I think one of the ways in which decisions can be made is through examining authorities, who can investigate rather than have an adversarial role in teasing out the complications of particular applications. But I appreciate that, in many cases, it will be the Minister, because of the enormity of that decision, who needs to make a decision in order for the public to be clear on where the responsibility lies.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister now to contribute and respond to the debate.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to debate this Bill today, and all of the comments made by Members today. In opening the debate, I set out why I believe the Bill is important, and I encourage the Senedd to support it as it goes through the next stages of the scrutiny process. It will represent a significant milestone for the Senedd in the consenting of infrastructure in Wales, and play a key role in helping us to achieve our net-zero targets.
I just want to make it very clear, Llywydd, that I’m very much looking forward to co-operating with all of the committees and their members in the Stage 2 proceedings, and in working together with you all for the amendments that we will all want to bring forward to make sure that this Bill is as good as it can be.
The proposals in the Bill support multiple commitments in our programme for government. This includes building a stronger, greener economy as we move towards decarbonisation, as well as embedding our response to the climate and nature emergency in everything we do.
Llywydd, you will recognise from my response today that I am carefully reviewing all the recommendations from the committees. The time constraints of this debate today do not allow me to go into the detail I would like to, but, where I am not able to do so, I will absolutely be responding to the Chairs of the relevant committees in writing following this debate.
Llywydd, I will attempt to cover some of the points that Members have made in the debate today. So, in terms of transitional arrangements, for example, I strongly believe the transition from existing consenting regimes to this regime needs to be clearer. I completely agree with that. The Bill will not apply to consents granted or applied for prior to the new regime coming into force. And in response to the recommendation from the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, I have agreed to provide an implementation plan in relation to subordinate legislation. The transitional arrangements will follow the same timeline, as they form part of the subordinate legislation. Those arrangements will be set out in that subordinate legislation to allow the arrangements to better take account of changes to the consenting process as we pass through Senedd scrutiny. So, for example, any changes to the pre-application and validation process may affect how the transitional arrangements will work. I intend to publish a revised statement of policy intent that will set out in detail our current proposals and undertake a focused engagement on those proposals prior to the wider consultation. The result of that consultation will then help inform the final form and content of the transitional arrangements. So, I use that, Llywydd, as an example, so I hope the committee can hear—I won’t have time to do that for every single one of the recommendations, but you can see where we’re trying to go. I agree with what the committee Chair said about those arrangements and I look forward to actually talking about the detail of that on the face of the Bill.
In terms of the comments from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Llywydd, I enjoyed the exchange with the LJC committee. It was—what’s the word I want to use?—'intense', very intense, extremely intense. Good scrutiny—it went back and forth quite a lot of times. The LJC committee is absolutely right—the Bill contains 14 Henry VIII powers. We have sought to limit these to small and specific matters—so, for example, to change the projects that may be subject to the new process, or to the provisions that apply to an individual application. I do continue to think this is the right balance for the Bill, and where you have recommended these powers are subject to the affirmative procedure I have responded positively to that. Llywydd, I'm bound to point out that the LJCC have suggested an additional nine Henry VIII powers. This is an unusual response, I think it's fair to say, from the committee and against the committee's normal position on this matter.Placing a power on the face of the Bill and then having to look elsewhere to check that that requirement has not changed makes a very unclear law in my view. Placing some of the detail requested on the face of the Bill now, rather than placing it in subordinate legislation, would deprive users of the system of any influence over what is included, or lead to the face of the Bill being changed very quickly, and I, personally, don't think that is a good position to be in.Users of the system are used to looking in a single piece of subordinate legislation for the main processes, and I don't think any stakeholder has indicated the details you've highlighted should be on the face of the Bill. But I do look forward to future exchanges with the committee as we seek to discover why they think an additional nine Henry VIII powers might be suitable for that.
Turning, then, to some of the remarks made by other Members and the RIA—. Sorry, turning to the Finance Committee points made and the RIA issues that were highlighted by the Chair of the Finance Committee, we will be looking at the costs of the Bill provided on a five-year appraisal period. The appraisal period has been chosen as the costs of the new regime to different stakeholders are expected to be relatively consistent in a short period of time, with benefits realised over the short to medium term. We've been informed by a number of key data sources in putting the costs and benefits listed in the RIA together. There are a series of reports that I'm very happy to share with the committee—I think we already have as part of the response.
There will be one-off costs to various stakeholders through implementing the Bill. We think they'll be approximately £418,600 and they will occur during 2024-25 and the majority of them are borne by the Welsh Government. There will then be ongoing costs for running the new infrastructure consenting process. They will be borne in the majority by the development industry, for the submission and determination of the applications. But, while the costs for developers are considerable, they do benefit from significant savings. We estimate those to be around £660,300 a year, in comparison to the current situation.
I'm more than happy to discuss again with the committee why we've set out the RIA in the way we have and to discuss improvements that could be made, but it is very difficult to cost every single element of this streamlining of the consenting process. Most of the costs do show clear financial benefits, for example, on the statutory consultees, but it's very difficult to cost every single one of them. I will, however, undertake to the Chair of the Finance Committee that I will update the benefits section of the RIA to justify the approach taken where we're not able to provide costs, because I think that's fair comment.
And then in terms of remarks made by other Members, it's important to remember this isn't just about energy, this is an infrastructure consenting process for all major infrastructure projects. So, whilst the comments made about energy developers are true, we have got to have a set of things that are fit-for-all infrastructure consenting processes. I look forward to discussing, particularly with the committee, about the involvement of the communities. I, too, am very anxious that communities have a full say in this process and that we make it as streamlined as possible for them to do so, and as clear, Llywydd, for them to do so.
In the end, what we want here is a consenting regime for Wales that is clear and straightforward on both sides, which allows us to be a world leader in the development of our infrastructure whilst protecting our environment and making sure that our communities remain engaged and happy with the infrastructure that, after all, serves them as much as it serves anyone else. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion under item 12. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And finally, the proposal to agree the motion under item 13. Does any Member object? No. There are no objections. That motion is also agreed and we, therefore, don't need to move to voting time this afternoon.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:19.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Mike Hedges: What is the Welsh Government doing to address the number of empty buildings in Swansea?

Mark Drakeford: We are supporting local authorities to bring empty buildings in town and city centres back into use through our £125 million Transforming Towns regeneration programme. We also support local authorities seeking to use enforcement powers to tackle problems associated with empty buildings.

Cefin Campbell: Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of GP services in Mid and West Wales?

Mark Drakeford: We have substantially increased the number of GP trainees and direct patient care staff, improving access to services. We continue to work with health boards and the profession to ensure a safe and sustainable future for general practice in local communities across Wales.

Rhys ab Owen: How is the Welsh Government supporting the cultural sector in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: We are continuing to support the cultural sector in Wales, in line with the commitments outlined in the programme for government and co-operation agreement.

Peredur Owen Griffiths: What is the Government’s plan for ensuring the safety of post-industrial toxic sites in South Wales East?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government is committed to ensuring our communities are safe. We continue to work with our local authorities and other partners to ensure that the necessary regulatory regimes are in place and are implemented. In the first instance, the responsibility for the safety of sites rests with the individual landowners.